Cancellation of an order

Terrys23

Hi.  We visited a Motorhome show at the NEC, just to look(!), and fell in love with one even though it was more expensive than we were thinking.  The salesman (doing his job well), told us that the vehicles were in short supply and we wouldn't get delivery for a year as the factory in France were still working on the previous years orders.  He said they would only go up in price and that if we put a deposit down before close of play on Sunday (the next day), he could get us 2024 plate but at the current price.  We felt panicked and when he phoned us the next day we paid a £4k deposit.  Over the next few days we started to worry about the amount and so the following weekend, we phoned to cancel our order believing we had a 14 day cooling off period.  The sales manager was angry and after a non-productive conversation, said he would email us to see if we fitted the criteria for a refund.  We didn't get a call back or email so we attempted to ring him.  After 6 phone calls to him, we still couldn't get to speak to him.  He eventually emailed us (we found out it was a standard reply) saying we were not entitled to a refund of our deposit.  We escalated to his boss (one of the directors) hoping for some intervention. We didn't get any sort of reply from him, even to say he would look into it, but instead we got another email from the Sales Manager.
Basically, according to them, they are entitled to hold our deposit until that vehicle or its build slot is re-sold, at which point they are entitled to deduct any difference in price from us.  They would refund our deposit then less any admin charge.  If however it sells for less, they can deduct the difference from our deposit and would legally be entitled to ask for more if necessary from us.
We are so worried about all this and have no idea if they acting legally or not.  We have no trust in the company and have no way of knowing if they actually placed our order with the factory in those first 7 days or not.  Also, even if they do sell our slot, we don't believe they will be in any hurry to refund us.  If we have to wait for the vehicle to be sold, that won't be for over a year.  

Does anyone know if we have any rights in this case please?  Are they acting legally?  Any help or advice would be very gratefully received.  
Many thanks. 

DullGreyGuy

Presumably this is a UK company in which case the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 apply as an off premises sale in which case you have 14 days from the date of delivery of the goods to cancel 

How did you pay the £4K? Card?

pinkshoes

There was a very similar post a few years ago so you might want to read this:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5424033/buying-at-a-trade-show

But yes, they are acting legally as you met face to face with them at a premises they were trading from and made your purchase based on this.

And yes, deducting an admin free from a deposit is more than fair.

km1500

Yes it is not an off-premises sale, but on-premises. You entered into a contract to buy said camper van. If you break a contract the seller is entitled to claim any difference in the eventual sale price from you, also reasonable admin fees - in fact, any losses as a result of your action.

Going forward, be careful if you sign a contract - it is a legal document.

Aylesbury_Duck

DullGreyGuy said:

Presumably this is a UK company in which case the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 apply as an off premises sale in which case you have 14 days from the date of delivery of the goods to cancel 

How did you pay the £4K? Card?

I don't think it would be considered as such, because OP had the opportunity to visit the retailer (albeit at a show) and see/test the product.

OP, what they've described as the way forward sounds lawful and correct to me.  They're entitled to protect their losses, so if they're able to re-sell the motorhome at the same or greater price, their only costs would be administrative.

DullGreyGuy

Aylesbury_Duck said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Presumably this is a UK company in which case the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 apply as an off premises sale in which case you have 14 days from the date of delivery of the goods to cancel 

How did you pay the £4K? Card?

I don't think it would be considered as such, because OP had the opportunity to visit the retailer (albeit at a show) and see/test the product.

OP, what they've described as the way forward sounds lawful and correct to me.  They're entitled to protect their losses, so if they're able to re-sell the motorhome at the same or greater price, their only costs would be administrative.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/5/ 

“off-premises contract” means a contract between a trader and a consumer which is any of these—

(a) a contract concluded in the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, in a place which is not the business premises of the trader;

(b) a contract for which an offer was made by the consumer in the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, in a place which is not the business premises of the trader;

(c) a contract concluded on the business premises of the trader or through any means of distance communication immediately after the consumer was personally and individually addressed in a place which is not the business premises of the trader in the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer;

(d) a contract concluded during an excursion organised by the trader with the aim or effect of promoting and selling goods or services to the consumer;

“business premises” in relation to a trader means—

(a) any immovable retail premises where the activity of the trader is carried out on a permanent basis, or

(b) any movable retail premises where the activity of the trader is carried out on a usual basis;


This was a show and so I cant see how it meets the definition of a the trader's business premises

Undervalued

DullGreyGuy said:

Presumably this is a UK company in which case the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 apply as an off premises sale in which case you have 14 days from the date of delivery of the goods to cancel 

How did you pay the £4K? Card?

I don't think so.

I am fairly sure this has been discussed before and that major trade shows are not considered "off premises".

After all the dealer with have paid a huge amount to rent a significant stand at a show like that this and for the duration of the show the stand is their premises? Their regular presence at a number of large shows may well yield the majority of their business.

Apart from the duration, how is it different from if they rented some premises for a few months whilst their normal showroom was being refurbished?

Aylesbury_Duck

DullGreyGuy said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Presumably this is a UK company in which case the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 apply as an off premises sale in which case you have 14 days from the date of delivery of the goods to cancel 

How did you pay the £4K? Card?

I don't think it would be considered as such, because OP had the opportunity to visit the retailer (albeit at a show) and see/test the product.

OP, what they've described as the way forward sounds lawful and correct to me.  They're entitled to protect their losses, so if they're able to re-sell the motorhome at the same or greater price, their only costs would be administrative.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/5/ 

“off-premises contract” means a contract between a trader and a consumer which is any of these—

(a) a contract concluded in the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, in a place which is not the business premises of the trader;

(b) a contract for which an offer was made by the consumer in the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, in a place which is not the business premises of the trader;

(c) a contract concluded on the business premises of the trader or through any means of distance communication immediately after the consumer was personally and individually addressed in a place which is not the business premises of the trader in the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer;

(d) a contract concluded during an excursion organised by the trader with the aim or effect of promoting and selling goods or services to the consumer;

“business premises” in relation to a trader means—

(a) any immovable retail premises where the activity of the trader is carried out on a permanent basis, or

(b) any movable retail premises where the activity of the trader is carried out on a usual basis;


This was a show and so I cant see how it meets the definition of a the trader's business premises

Thanks.  In which case, is the clause of contention the second (b) in your post, and whether the retailer's presence at the show constitutes "usual" business?

Undervalued

Aylesbury_Duck said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Presumably this is a UK company in which case the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 apply as an off premises sale in which case you have 14 days from the date of delivery of the goods to cancel 

How did you pay the £4K? Card?

I don't think it would be considered as such, because OP had the opportunity to visit the retailer (albeit at a show) and see/test the product.

OP, what they've described as the way forward sounds lawful and correct to me.  They're entitled to protect their losses, so if they're able to re-sell the motorhome at the same or greater price, their only costs would be administrative.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/5/ 

“off-premises contract” means a contract between a trader and a consumer which is any of these—

(a) a contract concluded in the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, in a place which is not the business premises of the trader;

(b) a contract for which an offer was made by the consumer in the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, in a place which is not the business premises of the trader;

(c) a contract concluded on the business premises of the trader or through any means of distance communication immediately after the consumer was personally and individually addressed in a place which is not the business premises of the trader in the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer;

(d) a contract concluded during an excursion organised by the trader with the aim or effect of promoting and selling goods or services to the consumer;

“business premises” in relation to a trader means—

(a) any immovable retail premises where the activity of the trader is carried out on a permanent basis, or

(b) any movable retail premises where the activity of the trader is carried out on a usual basis;


This was a show and so I cant see how it meets the definition of a the trader's business premises

Thanks.  In which case, is the clause of contention the second (b) in your post, and whether the retailer's presence at the show constitutes "usual" business?

I think that is the key point and a regular presence at a number of major shows may well produce the majority of their business.

Aylesbury_Duck

Undervalued said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Presumably this is a UK company in which case the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 apply as an off premises sale in which case you have 14 days from the date of delivery of the goods to cancel 

How did you pay the £4K? Card?

I don't think it would be considered as such, because OP had the opportunity to visit the retailer (albeit at a show) and see/test the product.

OP, what they've described as the way forward sounds lawful and correct to me.  They're entitled to protect their losses, so if they're able to re-sell the motorhome at the same or greater price, their only costs would be administrative.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/5/ 

“off-premises contract” means a contract between a trader and a consumer which is any of these—

(a) a contract concluded in the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, in a place which is not the business premises of the trader;

(b) a contract for which an offer was made by the consumer in the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, in a place which is not the business premises of the trader;

(c) a contract concluded on the business premises of the trader or through any means of distance communication immediately after the consumer was personally and individually addressed in a place which is not the business premises of the trader in the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer;

(d) a contract concluded during an excursion organised by the trader with the aim or effect of promoting and selling goods or services to the consumer;

“business premises” in relation to a trader means—

(a) any immovable retail premises where the activity of the trader is carried out on a permanent basis, or

(b) any movable retail premises where the activity of the trader is carried out on a usual basis;


This was a show and so I cant see how it meets the definition of a the trader's business premises

Thanks.  In which case, is the clause of contention the second (b) in your post, and whether the retailer's presence at the show constitutes "usual" business?

I think that is the key point and a regular presence at a number of major shows may well produce the majority of their business.

Perhaps OP could provide the name of the retailer.  It's possible that they don't have a permanent showroom, and conduct all their business at events like this one.

Alderbank

The European Court of Justice was recently asked to consider whether a stand run by a trader at a trade fair, at which the trader carries out their activity for a few days each year, constitutes “business premises”.

The verdict of the ECJ was 'It might, it might not. It all depends.'

The court ruled that the test for assessing whether a stand at a trade fair constitutes "business premises" involves consideration of whether the stand would appear to the average consumer to be a place where the trader occupying it carries out their activities, with the result that the consumer may reasonably expect, by visiting the stand, to be solicited by the trader to conclude a contract.

https://www.myerson.co.uk/news-insights-and-events/trade-fairs-on-or-off-premises