MSE News: An energy social tariff could save vulnerable households up to £1,500/year on their bills

matelodave

The more dependant you make people by giving handouts the more dependent they become and consequently have even less incentive to improve their situation.

In fact , many can be disincentivised , because as soon as they exceed whatever threshold has been set they don't qualify for the benefit anymore and so they are actually worse off.

Just chucking money at people may be a short term solution but has long term consequences for society. Giving people cheap leccy doesn't incentivise them to use less, it just encourages them to use the same or even more because they aren't paying the going rate.

TheElectricCow

Spoonie_Turtle said:

TheElectricCow said:

wild666 said:

If a social tariff comes in then it should be for something like the first 100 kWh of electric per month and the first 300 kWh of gas per month. This would cover the first £60 plus pounds of their bill but not standing charges so they person would still have to pay part of the bill even if they used less electric and gas per month than the figures I quoted.

What ever the system is, I think we can all agree there will be outliers on both ends of scale in terms of some not getting enough support or others getting more than they may necessarily need, based on individual circumstances. In that case I feel something more like this prevents a lot of potential "abuse" of the system, while people with genuinely higher energy needs (e.g. medical equipment) should be able to receive more support on an independent level rather than throwing more money at the masses to ensure that minority are adequately covered. But that's the sort of thing that is really going beyond the scope of a utility provider and is more a topic for wider welfare policy.

The problem with this is other than the physical use of equipment, what other thresholds would determine who needs to use extra?  There will always be people with illnesses needing more heat (or cooling in the summer) who either don't have a diagnosis and/or don't meet the threshold to claim disability benefits.  Many of those people will likely not be able to get a letter from their Dr confirming they need a particular temperature range to be able to function, because their Dr doesn't believe them (I am not exaggerating there).

And that's without mentioning families who have extra loads of washing every day due to medical conditions, or any other scenarios where extra energy is needed that people don't tend to think of.

Absolutely a valid point. Quite frankly, I can’t say I’ve got a good answer to that.

I myself happen to be someone who often requires cooler temperatures as a result of one of my conditions, and I know it would be a rather long and difficult process to obtain written evidence stating as such from a medical professional, so I can definitely appreciate the argument in that respect.

The only real difference in my case is that I’m fortunate enough (and have made sacrifices on other luxuries) to be able to pay for that cooling out of my own pocket, with the only financial relief being vastly lower heating requirements over winter. 

The fact that I wouldn’t need the support probably does skew my perception of the situation as a whole, but still the unfortunate reality seems to be that no one solution would be perfect across the board with. I may have increased energy requirements in the summer, but somewhere along the line the decision would have to be made as to whether someone like me should be able to claim such support on that basis even though I would continue to get by absolutely fine without it at my own expense.

SnakePlissken

MattMattMattUK said:

Other countries subsidise energy to a greater or lesser extent, other countries have huge domestic energy reserves and are net exporters, other countries made mass investments in nuclear (France, Japan and others), some have a location more suited to renewable, others burn huge amounts of coal ignoring the climate impact. 

Like Scotland where roughtly a 3rd of production is exported to England and with the 10 to 20 GW of offshore and other planned renewables new build, including 4 new pumped storage schemes with 2 new sub sea interconnectors will see this rise well above a 3rd of excess to what Scotland uses.

Mstty

After Fukushima aren't Japan turning or turned a lot of their nuclear reactors off and have none left by 2030?

I wonder what their plan is now and what we can learn from it.

victor2

Mstty said:

After Fukushima aren't Japan turning or turned a lot of their nuclear reactors off and have none left by 2030?

I wonder what their plan is now and what we can learn from it.

It looks like they've realised there is no alternative...
https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-g-n/japan-nuclear-power.aspx

SnakePlissken

victor2 said:

Mstty said:

After Fukushima aren't Japan turning or turned a lot of their nuclear reactors off and have none left by 2030?

I wonder what their plan is now and what we can learn from it.

It looks like they've realised there is no alternative...
https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-g-n/japan-nuclear-power.aspx

They are looking at tidal power

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a40221162/japan-kairyu-sea-turbine/

And here is their generation mix with nuclear at under 6%

https://www.isep.or.jp/en/1243/

gbhxu

Speaking as a disabled person existing on benefits I'd welcome a social tariff.

By some methods, I'd be considered to be living in fuel poverty.

£1500 may seem overkill to some people. But, that what it costs me, living on my own using electricity, coal and wood. Luckily this was covered by all of the various Cost Of Living payments this year.

Have to agree with the ludicrous price of renewable energy considering sun rays and the wind are free fuels.

I don't know what would be an acceptable method to define eligibility for being able to get the social tariff.

They could at least reduce the standing charge. I don't think that £180 a year is value for money. in my case, that's over 20% of my electricity bill. To put this in perspective, the distribution company that covers my area made £243.1 million in pre-tax profits in the year ending March 2022. Perhaps this could be reduced. BT can do it with their social tariff line rental. I only pay £63 a year with them.

Whatever method they use, you'll always get people complaining that they are missing out. You've only got to read about people complaining about the fact that they weren't entitled to the Warm Home Discount this year when they were previously entitled to it.

Apodemus

gbhxu said:

Have to agree with the ludicrous price of renewable energy considering sun rays and the wind are free fuels.

This is similar to the complaints that we used to hear about water charges - "it falls from the sky, so why should we pay for it".

If it was so cheap and easy to collect the free energy, then everyone would just collect it themselves. But it's not free and it's not easy. It takes massive capital investment and technical know-how, then costs more to distribute to where it is used, often hundreds of miles from where it is generated.

casjen

Only the SC should have a social discount applied to it for those who require it. Cheaper rates do not encourage responsible use.

[Deleted User]

gbhxu said:

Speaking as a disabled person existing on benefits I'd welcome a social tariff.

By some methods, I'd be considered to be living in fuel poverty.

£1500 may seem overkill to some people. But, that what it costs me, living on my own using electricity, coal and wood. Luckily this was covered by all of the various Cost Of Living payments this year.

Have to agree with the ludicrous price of renewable energy considering sun rays and the wind are free fuels.

I don't know what would be an acceptable method to define eligibility for being able to get the social tariff.

They could at least reduce the standing charge. I don't think that £180 a year is value for money. in my case, that's over 20% of my electricity bill. To put this in perspective, the distribution company that covers my area made £243.1 million in pre-tax profits in the year ending March 2022. Perhaps this could be reduced. BT can do it with their social tariff line rental. I only pay £63 a year with them.

Whatever method they use, you'll always get people complaining that they are missing out. You've only got to read about people complaining about the fact that they weren't entitled to the Warm Home Discount this year when they were previously entitled to it.

That would be true were it not for the fact that there is a capital investment that needs to be repaid, and there is the ongoing cost of maintenance and depreciation, and the cost of eventual disposal of the assets. 

I know that profits are a dirty word on this forum but high profits generate more in the way of UK taxes, and dividends for pension funds. 

The reason that suppliers are so keen on a social tariff is that it will reduce the debt burden as the cost of any social tariff is passed on to other energy consumers. We really shouldn’t be asking energy consumers to pay for what should come out of taxation.