New prices in April

MattMattMattUK

deano2099 said:

Doesn't part of the standing charge go towards SOLR payments though, which basically repay a loan from the government?

Part of it does yes.

deano2099 said:

So there's an argument that the better subsidy is the government writing off that loan, thus bringing the standing charge down?

That could be one's argument, but that is premised on the view that a lower standing charge and a higher unit cost would be "better" which is tenuous at best. The money would also have to be recovered one way or another, so it would fall on general taxation which is already hugely skewed in the first place. 

deano2099 said:

Which also has the added "benefit" of cutting everyone's bills the same amount, rather than giving a large subsidy to high users.

The idea that a subsidy should benefit everyone equally is a wrong position to start with, however, whilst ultra high users are generally the very wealthy with large homes, swimming pools etc. most "high users" are merely large, sometimes multi-generational families and people in inefficient rented accommodation, whilst "low users" are almost always those with solar and/or heat pumps.

diystarter7

From 3 hours ago the energy price gurantee to be extended annd I heard about it on the raid about this about 4 hours ago

https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/companies/news/1007959/spring-budget-to-include-extension-of-energy-price-guarantee-reports-1007959.html

Sea_Shell

EssexHebridean said:

@MattMattMattUK There’s relatively little you’ve said I would disagree with - at least in theory. I think the media have a huge amount to answer for in terms of the harm being done to mental health in this country - that applies not only to the current energy crisis where they have been ridiculously irresponsible with their reporting, but also in many other areas too. If it were just the gutter press then that would be a bit different but it really isn’t any more - lazy reporting and just looking to maximise clicks regardless of who gets hurt seems to be prevalent pretty much across the board. 

As for the stitches analogy - that would be ideal, I’d completely agree. The problem is though, the person who’s needing the stitches has gone into hiding and it will require a manhunt and huge expenditure to find them - so issuing plasters to everyone is seemingly a more budget friendly option. Having said that, I’d still question why we can be this far into the situation and still nobody has been able to work out a way to target the help to where it is most needed. Even some form of voluntary opt-out scheme would be a start - although again, expensive to administer and it would of course come with attendant bullying and shaming which would have its own harms - I can fully imagine that having opted out would rapidly become “bragging rights” on here for some, for a start! 

The stock alternative answer to this seems to be "well, if you don't need the money [help], you could always make a donation to (a relevant) charity" 😉

Which comes with its own "bullying and shaming" innuendo.

Scot_39

For a treasury supposed to be worried about risk exposure - the EPG extension is potentially the riskier way forward.

But given the prices for the next few months seem consistently forecast to be dropping its not much of a risk.

Just a reduced govt deficit improvement and so taxpayer debt and debt interest problem to extend aid.

Arguably EBSS was the more progressive approach.  But you could argue that already covered by the £900 UC (oops means tested benefit) and the likes of this year's £300 WFP on top of EBSS.

It benefits low users more.

Not that all poor are low users (disabled, elderly, large families all use or rather need /  ideally would if able to afford - more than others on average - even if poor.

But if govt is going to extend - it should surely have done so by now if prepay rates going to metering teams etc to reprogram meters or top up terminals etc.

ML in part speculating based on "a few suppliers" on prepay rates, who might simply be looking at their actual current rates now lower than Ofgem window (people like Octopus happy to pass that on now on ToU market linked tariffs)  doing their own social conscious thing. 
But it should be noted that not all passed on Ofgem rises in Jan to those on prepay and SC ? - iirc Octopus.

Most if not all others however did.

EssexHebridean

Sea_Shell said:

EssexHebridean said:

@MattMattMattUK There’s relatively little you’ve said I would disagree with - at least in theory. I think the media have a huge amount to answer for in terms of the harm being done to mental health in this country - that applies not only to the current energy crisis where they have been ridiculously irresponsible with their reporting, but also in many other areas too. If it were just the gutter press then that would be a bit different but it really isn’t any more - lazy reporting and just looking to maximise clicks regardless of who gets hurt seems to be prevalent pretty much across the board. 

As for the stitches analogy - that would be ideal, I’d completely agree. The problem is though, the person who’s needing the stitches has gone into hiding and it will require a manhunt and huge expenditure to find them - so issuing plasters to everyone is seemingly a more budget friendly option. Having said that, I’d still question why we can be this far into the situation and still nobody has been able to work out a way to target the help to where it is most needed. Even some form of voluntary opt-out scheme would be a start - although again, expensive to administer and it would of course come with attendant bullying and shaming which would have its own harms - I can fully imagine that having opted out would rapidly become “bragging rights” on here for some, for a start! 

The stock alternative answer to this seems to be "well, if you don't need the money [help], you could always make a donation to (a relevant) charity" 😉

Which comes with its own "bullying and shaming" innuendo.

It certainly can do - although on here at least for the most part that implication is only generally used when the protestations of “oh well I don’t need it so it’s ridiculous it is being given to me” come with an attendant element of boastfulness. And that in itself is the flip side of course - those that do donate it, or part of it - but ensure that they tell absolutely everyone they can that they have done so.

Charitable giving generally is often seemingly done at least in part to enable people to tell others they have done it. I suspect any number of people on here have indeed made donations to various charities over the course of the last year or so - or indeed supported them in other ways - without feeling any need whatsoever to shout about it! It’s like the sort of people who carry out what they call a “Random Act of Kindness” then promptly tell their 287 Twitter followers about it and wait for the validation to come flooding back to them! 

Scot_39

deano2099 said:

Doesn't part of the standing charge go towards SOLR payments though, which basically repay a loan from the government? So there's an argument that the better subsidy is the government writing off that loan, thus bringing the standing charge down? Which also has the added "benefit" of cutting everyone's bills the same amount, rather than giving a large subsidy to high users.

The SoLR figure is now much lower in this Q Ofgem price announcement.

See their press announcement re price breakdown - c£61 last Q to c£19 this IIRC.

The new problem for electric SC is a new calculation formula and I suspect support funding for future grid upgrades to take feeds from 10s GW (like the 16.8GW licenses already sold in last 2 auctions and 10GW + in next round planned ) new solar and wind farms etc and distribute it.

Just like the cables in your home - and as some will find to their cost when switching away from gas - into their home (the current common 60A to 100 may not suffice in larger homes - a c10kW ashp for a smallish house needs 40A - try running that and say an electric shower etc ) - national grid cables and support electrics at substations have finite capacity.

Suspect approvals like this one will be widespread in near future (this alone including overhead grid and 4 new HVDC subsea links in places - from Islands to mainland, 1 Caithness to Peterhead and 2 from Peterhead to England - the 2 delivering 4GW to England by cable ).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-63984935

diystarter7

Sea_Shell said:

EssexHebridean said:

@MattMattMattUK There’s relatively little you’ve said I would disagree with - at least in theory. I think the media have a huge amount to answer for in terms of the harm being done to mental health in this country - that applies not only to the current energy crisis where they have been ridiculously irresponsible with their reporting, but also in many other areas too. If it were just the gutter press then that would be a bit different but it really isn’t any more - lazy reporting and just looking to maximise clicks regardless of who gets hurt seems to be prevalent pretty much across the board. 

As for the stitches analogy - that would be ideal, I’d completely agree. The problem is though, the person who’s needing the stitches has gone into hiding and it will require a manhunt and huge expenditure to find them - so issuing plasters to everyone is seemingly a more budget friendly option. Having said that, I’d still question why we can be this far into the situation and still nobody has been able to work out a way to target the help to where it is most needed. Even some form of voluntary opt-out scheme would be a start - although again, expensive to administer and it would of course come with attendant bullying and shaming which would have its own harms - I can fully imagine that having opted out would rapidly become “bragging rights” on here for some, for a start! 

The stock alternative answer to this seems to be "well, if you don't need the money [help], you could always make a donation to (a relevant) charity" 😉

Which comes with its own "bullying and shaming" innuendo.

Hi

Excellent post

It is sad but true that some see people as not needing this and that according to the criteria they have in their head. No one knows by just looking at anyone what their financial situation or health is.

The way the gov is handling our money back to us is the most cost-effective way of doing it. To try and financially assess people will create division and more importantly, cost a lot more than it will save.



Thnaks

Scot_39

diystarter7 said:

Sea_Shell said:

EssexHebridean said:

@MattMattMattUK There’s relatively little you’ve said I would disagree with - at least in theory. I think the media have a huge amount to answer for in terms of the harm being done to mental health in this country - that applies not only to the current energy crisis where they have been ridiculously irresponsible with their reporting, but also in many other areas too. If it were just the gutter press then that would be a bit different but it really isn’t any more - lazy reporting and just looking to maximise clicks regardless of who gets hurt seems to be prevalent pretty much across the board. 

As for the stitches analogy - that would be ideal, I’d completely agree. The problem is though, the person who’s needing the stitches has gone into hiding and it will require a manhunt and huge expenditure to find them - so issuing plasters to everyone is seemingly a more budget friendly option. Having said that, I’d still question why we can be this far into the situation and still nobody has been able to work out a way to target the help to where it is most needed. Even some form of voluntary opt-out scheme would be a start - although again, expensive to administer and it would of course come with attendant bullying and shaming which would have its own harms - I can fully imagine that having opted out would rapidly become “bragging rights” on here for some, for a start! 

The stock alternative answer to this seems to be "well, if you don't need the money [help], you could always make a donation to (a relevant) charity" 😉

Which comes with its own "bullying and shaming" innuendo.

Hi

Excellent post

It is sad but true that some see people as not needing this and that according to the criteria they have in their head. No one knows by just looking at anyone what their financial situation or health is.

The way the gov is handling our money back to us is the most cost-effective way of doing it. To try and financially assess people will create division and more importantly, cost a lot more than it will save.



Thnaks

You do not have to financially assess people for the EBSS fixed rate subsidy either.

It just strikes me as wrong to use simplicity as an argument to continue with the EPG - which benefits many very wealthy people - including mps on £84k+expenses a year and millionaire footballers etc.

Before ConsLib tariff simplification, there were banded tariffs - so the EPG discount could itself be restricted in scope.

Comparing it to another common state subsidy, if someone on over 60k is viewed by the state as not needing child benefit (its taxed back to £0 on 50-60k taper) , do they need £100s - £1,000s in EPG discount help.

deano2099

Some "benefits" just go to everyone and that's generally because it's simpler to administer. Any time you start qualifying people, you then open up the possibility of fraud, so you then need safeguards in place to prevent fraud, and to pursue those trying to defraud the system.

Would it be at all viable or desirable to *keep* the EPG at the current level even after the price cap drops below the current EPG level, and run it in reverse for a period of time? So the government claw back some of the cost over time?
(I'm not arguing for/against this, just think it might be an interesting idea to explore)

Raxiel

Scot_39 said:

deano2099 said:

Doesn't part of the standing charge go towards SOLR payments though, which basically repay a loan from the government? So there's an argument that the better subsidy is the government writing off that loan, thus bringing the standing charge down? Which also has the added "benefit" of cutting everyone's bills the same amount, rather than giving a large subsidy to high users.

The SoLR figure is now much lower in this Q Ofgem price announcement.

See their press announcement re price breakdown - c£61 last Q to c£19 this IIRC.

The new problem for electric SC is a new calculation formula and I suspect support funding for future grid upgrades to take feeds from 10s GW (like the 16.8GW licenses already sold in last 2 auctions and 10GW + in next round planned ) new solar and wind farms etc and distribute it.

Just like the cables in your home - and as some will find to their cost when switching away from gas - into their home (the current common 60A to 100 may not suffice in larger homes - a c10kW ashp for a smallish house needs 40A - try running that and say an electric shower etc ) - national grid cables and support electrics at substations have finite capacity.

Suspect approvals like this one will be widespread in near future (this alone including overhead grid and 4 new HVDC subsea links in places - from Islands to mainland, 1 Caithness to Peterhead and 2 from Peterhead to England - the 2 delivering 4GW to England by cable ).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-63984935

There will also be upgrade costs to the HV network to make sure it doesn't catch fire in 40°c ambient heat, given last year's heatwave is unlikely to be a one-off.