Gatwick Drop off PCN without stopping and no letters received from NCP

LoveOutdoors

Hi all. This post follows on from the below thread but I'm posting separately as my situation is slightly different. 
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6403536/gatwick-north-terminal-drop-off-pcn-without-stopping/

I currently have a very similar issue described in the above thread where I have been wrongly accused of using Gatwick airports drop-off zone. I'm my situation, I pre-booked and paid for the use of Gatwick airport's long-stay carpark (and have evidence of this) but my vehicle was picked up by NCP's ANPR cameras apparently entering and leaving a drop-off zone requiring a fee of £5 which I didn't pay for at the time as was of course, unaware of this. I don't have any recollection of driving through such a zone and thus refuse to admit being the driver but there is indeed evidence that my vehicle entered such a zone. On reading NCP's rules, apparently, they allow a very aggressive and unreasonable 1-minute leeway if a vehicle accidentally enters such a zone but doesn't stop however the total time my vehicle was registered entering and exiting was 1 minute and 34 seconds thus apparently liable to pay the fee! Taking traffic into consideration and whatever the distance is between the entrance and exit of such a zone, to think anyone can actually successfully drop off and make it out in this time is just ridiculous!

Anyway, where my issue differs from the previous thread is that unfortunately, I did not receive any letters from NCP. The first I heard about the incident was a few weeks ago (over 5 months after the incident date) when I received a threatening letter from a firm (bwlegal) that has taken over the debt from NCP. The fine I'm now expected to pay is £170! I have contacted the firm and they have sent copies of the letters NCP apparently sent out. The date the first letter was sent out (apparently) was 95 days after the incident btw so surely well outside of the allowed 14-day window anyway?. The address on these copies is correct and so I'm really not sure why I did not receive them but I am 100% certain that if I did, I would not have ignored them and would have absolutely disputed the accusation knowing I did nothing wrong. However, because I did not receive these letters, I have now missed the opportunity to dispute anything and am instead left with a threatening firm harassing me for the money with further threats if not paid in a certain timeframe. 

So my question is, does anyone know if I can still dispute this with NCP and if I can, can I somehow request greater clarity on evidence that these letters were actually sent and successfully delivered? The fact 2 letters were apparently sent but I didn't receive either of them strongly suggests an issue on NCP's side because it's highly unlikely I would have missed both letters and I know I would have immediately responded if I did receive them. The address on my vehicle's V5C is correct and clearly have had no issue receiving mail from the firm who have taken over the case and so it's a question of what process NCP use to send letters.

Any help or advice someone can give me would be greatly appreciated.

Coupon-mad

As stated on another thread:

Put in a complaint to the BPA that:

(a) NCP penalised the driver (not 'me"') even though the car did not stop (explain wrong turn WITHOUT SAYING WHO WAS DRIVING)

and

(b) the first you heard from NCP was ...blah blah so there appears to be an issue with NCP's mail cobsolidator which has reportedly happened before.  Given NCP use a mail consolidator third party, there will be a record of whether the first PCN  - or the batch it was in - was actually put into the Royal Mail system or not.

Fruitcake

Please don't forget to complain to your MP as well, and ask them to forward it to the MP for Gatwick. Include the fact that this entrapment zone is being investigated by the BPA but the problem still hasn't been fixed and people are still being caught months later.

Each occurrence it is a data breach by both NCP and the DVLA, so you would like both investigated as well.

B789

LoveOutdoors said:

I have contacted the firm and they have sent copies of the letters NCP apparently sent out. The date the first letter was sent out (apparently) was 95 days after the incident btw so surely well outside of the allowed 14-day window anyway?

Oh dear... when you "contacted" the firm, was it by phone or correspondence? At that time, did you in any way identify the driver? Typically, victims who haven't yet received their education from this forum tend to put their foot in it by saying things like "I drove through..." or "My husband drove thorough..." etc. You must always refer to "The driver drove through...". No I, me, he/she etc.

LoveOutdoors

B789 said:

LoveOutdoors said:

I have contacted the firm and they have sent copies of the letters NCP apparently sent out. The date the first letter was sent out (apparently) was 95 days after the incident btw so surely well outside of the allowed 14-day window anyway?

Oh dear... when you "contacted" the firm, was it by phone or correspondence? At that time, did you in any way identify the driver? Typically, victims who haven't yet received their education from this forum tend to put their foot in it by saying things like "I drove through..." or "My husband drove thorough..." etc. You must always refer to "The driver drove through...". No I, me, he/she etc.

I contacted them by phone and to be honest, I can't recall what I said exactly. I do plan to be writing to their DPO requesting all data they hold against me including but not limited to any data they would rely on in court and so if the phone conversation was recorded I'd expect this would also be included as part of it. From there I'd have to check exactly what was said but I know I never directly admitted to using the drop-off zone but whether I said I was driving the vehicle at any point during the conversation I'm unsure of 
Based on all the other factors mentioned however, If something like this was said during a phone conversation, would this be enough evidence to prosecute?

Umkomaas

I contacted them by phone and to be honest, I can't recall what I said exactly. I do plan to be writing to their DPO requesting all data they hold against me including but not limited to any data they would rely on in court and so if the phone conversation was recorded I'd expect this would also be included as part of it.

So, specifically ask for that in their response to your SAR. Ask them to confirm, or otherwise, whether they hold any recorded conversations with you. Paint them into a corner, not allowing them to skip over your request, with you perhaps assuming that as they've not forwarded any recording, they do not hold one. Get them to commit to an answer. 

B789

@LoveOutdoors if you haven't identified the driver you can get this quashed almost immediately as, if you've read and digested the Newbies thread, this occurred on "non-relevant" land which is covered by airport bylaws. What that means that, as long as they don't know who was driving, they cannot transfer liability for the charge to the registered keeper, who we assume is you.

They cannot oblige you to reveal the drivers details and they cannot just assume that because you are the RK that you were also the driver. So, the requirement is for them to identify the driver (which they can't unless you have told or tell them) and so they cannot do anything with the PCN as it will be kicked out at POPLA if it isn't cancelled by them in the first place.

Plenty of examples if you search the forum for initial appeals for this. Basically, it goes along the lines:

Dear Parking Company,

RE PCN: XXXXXX

I am the registered keeper of vehicle ABC12DE and as your PCN is not POFA compliant as the alleged event took place on non-relevant land which is covered by airport bylaws, you cannot hold me, the registered keeper liable and I am not prepared to tell you who the driver was. Cancel this PCN now or waste your money at POPLA where it will be cancelled.

Yours sincerely,

Ms Angry of Purley (Registered Keeper)

Or words to that effect as you will find when you do your search.

Coupon-mad

Prosecute?!

LoveOutdoors

Hi All.

I thought it would be appropriate to post the outcome of my dispute 1.) so the kind people who helped give advice are made aware, 2.) for anyone else who is in the same situation and 3.) for anyone interested in NCP's response.

I've recently received confirmation from Gatwick airport that my PCN was eventually cancelled, thank you to everyone who helped. 

For anyone who is interested, I did the following:

1. I made a complaint to Gatwick airport regarding the dispute - It was this which resulted in the first response and the cancellation of the PCN.
2. I wrote directly to NCP disputing the claim raising similar points to that suggested on the previous thread - at the time of writing, I have yet to receive a response.
3. I wrote to the BPA, quoting BPA-032489 and asking my case to be added - I received a response that said breaches of their code of practice are treated on a case-by-case basis and that I need to raise a complaint to their dedicated online complaints portal. I have yet to do this.
4. I wrote to my MP making a complaint to NCP explaining my situation and their conduct - This was picked up and escalated to NCP who interestingly immediately responded unlike my complaint with them which I'm still awaiting a reply. By the time the response was received however, Gatwick airport had gotten involved and cancelled the PCN and so they pointed out the dispute was already closed although it would have been interesting to know their response if it had not yet been cancelled. On top of this, I will list their response to some of the points I raised which you may find interesting as these were based on suggestions in this thread and the linked thread:

NCP have unlawfully obtained and processed my personal data

NCP have legitimate interest to request the data as at the time of issuing, being under the impression that there was a breach of the zone terms and conditions occurring. On appeal of the issuance, it was brought to our attention that access through the zone was not intentional and therefore the notice was approved and cancelled.

NCP failed to comply with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012; the issue date of the PCN (after requesting copies of what was apparently sent but never received) was 95 days later than the day after which the specified period of parking ended, and not within 14 days as required in paragraph 9 of the aforementioned Act  

As a company, NCP adhere to The British Parking Associations: Code of Practice, which sets out guidelines and they are therefore built into our operating procedures.

Clauses:

21.7 To give drivers early notice of your claim, you should apply to the DVLA for the keeper details promptly. Usually this would be applying to the DVLA no more than 28 days after the unauthorised parking event. When applying for Keeper Details you must ensure that you adhere to the DVLA’s guidelines and requirements.

21.8 While we have an expectation that operators will seek to use the POFA legislation, it is appreciated that there will be occasions where this might not be possible. If a non-POFA Notice to Keeper is being issued it must be sent out as soon as possible and no later than 7 months after the original parking event.

The PCN is not POFA compliant as the alleged event took place on non-relevant land which is covered by airport bylaws, hence cannot hold me, the registered keeper liable. 

PCN’s are issued under contract law and therefore do not utilise the Airport Byelaws but rather UK Contract Law.

I'm not taking this dispute any further and am just glad it has been resolved although I do really hope my escalations go some way to preventing others from falling into the same trap.

Thanks again to all that helped on this and the linked thread. 

Coupon-mad

Thanks for the update and well done on seeing it off!

Ed2022

Not sure if the regulars here have had chance to evaluate chatGPT - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-64749662