No RCD = EICR fail ?

Section62

grumbler said:

FreeBear said:

grumbler said: It would be pretty easy and cheap if there were two empty slots in the CU. Yours seems to have only one - on the left side(?). What are two MCBs in the middle- 5 and 4?

... then there would be space for an RCD, but.... Fitting one would entail modifying the bus bar,

Why? I don't think any modification is needed for one RCD. For two, the neutral bus needs splitting.

The (line) busbar is easy to modify or replace.

If an RCD were installed in position 1&2 the line busbar would need to be (at least) two units shorter.

The modification is probably fairly easy to do, but I suspect the issue would be finding an electrician willing to do that rather than buying a new CU. The correct cables would also be required to link the main switch to the RCD.

For the messing about (for a trader) it may be more economic to get a new (possibly bare) CU and install that (with spare capacity), rather than hope to find a trader who is willing to improvise. As the property will be let out it doesn't make sense to try to save a few quid on a less-than-ideal solution.

grumbler

Section62 said:

grumbler said:

FreeBear said:

grumbler said: It would be pretty easy and cheap if there were two empty slots in the CU. Yours seems to have only one - on the left side(?). What are two MCBs in the middle- 5 and 4?

... then there would be space for an RCD, but.... Fitting one would entail modifying the bus bar,

Why? I don't think any modification is needed for one RCD. For two, the neutral bus needs splitting.

The (line) busbar is easy to modify or replace.

The modification is probably fairly easy to do, but I suspect the issue would be finding an electrician willing to do that rather than buying a new CU. The correct cables would also be required to link the main switch to the RCD.

Yeah - like many gas engineers would push you into buying a new boiler and employing them to install it.

I'd be surprised if an electrician didn't have two pieces of the 'correct' cables in their van.

Section62

grumbler said:

Section62 said:

The modification is probably fairly easy to do, but I suspect the issue would be finding an electrician willing to do that rather than buying a new CU. The correct cables would also be required to link the main switch to the RCD.

I'd be surprised if an electrician didn't have two pieces of the 'correct' cables in their van.

Possibly so, but they aren't 'free' so unless the electrician is a generous soul there would be a further cost attached to modifying an existing CU compared to buying a replacement (which is more suitable for the requirements of the property).

bris

movilogo said:

After living in my home for many years I want to let it out now and hence called electrician for EICR.

He said since my consumer unit is non RCD it will fail and I must replace it.

Searching at internet I don't see any mention of non RCD being C1/C2 type fault. So wondering if I'm being taken for a ride?

Attached image of consumer unit

It's a C3 as long as there is no signs of thermal damage and is in good condition.

Risteard

bris said:

movilogo said:

After living in my home for many years I want to let it out now and hence called electrician for EICR.

He said since my consumer unit is non RCD it will fail and I must replace it.

Searching at internet I don't see any mention of non RCD being C1/C2 type fault. So wondering if I'm being taken for a ride?

Attached image of consumer unit

It's a C3 as long as there is no signs of thermal damage and is in good condition.

That would depend on the circumstances. Absense of additional protection by means of a 30mA RCD where now required must attract a minimum of a C3 observation (improvement recommended). However in some circumstances it can warrant a C2 observation (potentially dangerous - urgent remedial action required).

It is not correct to state that it can only ever attract a C3 observation. And it has nothing to do with there being signs of thermal damage in the DB, or the DB being in good condition.

Risteard

grumbler said:

Section62 said:

grumbler said:

FreeBear said:

grumbler said: It would be pretty easy and cheap if there were two empty slots in the CU. Yours seems to have only one - on the left side(?). What are two MCBs in the middle- 5 and 4?

... then there would be space for an RCD, but.... Fitting one would entail modifying the bus bar,

Why? I don't think any modification is needed for one RCD. For two, the neutral bus needs splitting.

The (line) busbar is easy to modify or replace.

The modification is probably fairly easy to do, but I suspect the issue would be finding an electrician willing to do that rather than buying a new CU. The correct cables would also be required to link the main switch to the RCD.

Yeah - like many gas engineers would push you into buying a new boiler and employing them to install it.

I'd be surprised if an electrician didn't have two pieces of the 'correct' cables in their van.

I can assure you that very few Electricians would carry tri-rated panel flex and ferrules. And I say that as someone who does happen to carry it.

Risteard

FreeBear said:

grumbler said: It would be pretty easy and cheap if there were two empty slots in the CU. Yours seems to have only one - on the left side(?). What are two MCBs in the middle- 5 and 4?

If slots 4&5 are indeed unused, then there would be space for an RCD, but.... Fitting one would entail modifying the bus bar, and you probably wouldn't get one specifically designed & tested for that consumer unit. Our resident pedant would tell you that it would void the warranty and be non-compliant.

The alternative would be to fit a standalone breaker & RCD between the CU and meter - Would be a little cheaper than replacing the CU.

It has nothing to do with being pedantic.

In fact the Wiring Regulations specifically address this:

"In low voltage assemblies to the BS EN 61439 series, e.g. consumer units, distribution boards, incorporated devices and components shall only be those declared suitable according to the assembly manufacturer’s instructions or literature.

"NOTE 1: The use of individual components complying with their respective product standard(s) does not indicate their compatibility when installed with other components in a low voltage switchgear and controlgear assembly.
"NOTE 2: Incorporated components inside the assembly can be from different manufacturers. It is essential that all incorporated components should have had their compatibility for the final enclosed arrangements verified by the original manufacturer of the assembly and be assembled in accordance with their instructions e.g. the consumer unit, distribution board manufacturer. The original manufacturer is the organization that carried out the original design and the associated verification of the low voltage switchgear and controlgear assembly to the relevant part of the BS EN 61439 series. If an assembly deviates from its original manufacturer’s instructions, or includes components not included in the original verification, the person introducing the deviation becomes the original manufacturer with the corresponding obligations."

It would also nullify the UK-only derogation in Annex ZB granting a conditional (short-circuit) rating of 16kA for the assembly.

Frankly a lot of nonsense has been written in this thread by people who are not competent to give such advice. Furthermore, a standalone 30mA RCCB is unlikely to be acceptable for a number of reasons:

* It doesn't mitigate the effects of a single fault causing loss of supply to the entire installation;

* An RCD should not have cumulative Earth leakage exceeding 30% of its nominal rating - in the case of a 30mA device this is merely 9mA of leakage. It is unlikely that you could guarantee this across an entire electrical installation.

Risteard

movilogo said:

Actually he had not given me EICR. He said giving me an unsatisfactory EICR serves no purpose so he told me verbally and charged me his call out charges. 

When I used a lawn mower I used an extension cord from inside. I don't have sockets on outside wall.

If I need to upgrade to RCD how much would be a reasonable cost? 

I can't agree with that. Periodic inspection and testing is to highlight defects in the installation, so to claim that it would serve no purpose is, in my opinion, complete nonsense.

As someone who carries out many industrial, commercial and domestic periodic inspections (recorded in an Electrical Installation Condition Report) I can tell you that probably 95% are "Unsatisfactory". This isn't a problem so long as required remedial works are carried out, and the relevant certification for these works will demonstrate that the relevant issues have been addressed.

movilogo

I have another distribution box in the kitchen for kitchen appliances. This also not having RCD. I checked that electric is fed to this box via #1 switch (labelled as Cooker) in my original post.

I guess since previous owner extended kitchen long time back, they put an additional distribution box in kitchen too. This box has writing BS 5419 1977 CATEGORY AC21 WYLEX. 

If I replace/upgrade the main consumer unit (in my first post) with RCD, then do I have to change kitchen distribution box too or it will be automatically compliant as current is fed to kitchen box via main distribution box?

Risteard

movilogo said:

I have another distribution box in the kitchen for kitchen appliances. This also not having RCD. I checked that electric is fed to this box via #1 switch (labelled as Cooker) in my original post.

I guess since previous owner extended kitchen long time back, they put an additional distribution box in kitchen too. This box has writing BS 5419 1977 CATEGORY AC21 WYLEX. 

If I replace/upgrade the main consumer unit (in my first post) with RCD, then do I have to change kitchen distribution box too or it will be automatically compliant as current is fed to kitchen box via main distribution box?

BS 5419 only relates to the isolator (switch disconnector).