Threat of removal of vehicle from private land. No signage. No PCN. Threats galore.

Missymatrix

Hi, 

I am just wondering if anyone can help please. I will try to keep it as short as possible. 
Local HA have claimed greenfield/allotment behind our home is their land, refuse to show proof of ownership.

Van parked on unused patch of grass between two drives.

Local housing officer spoke to neighbour, I then called her (this was Friday afternoon) & explained van was broken awaiting being fixed & wasn't mine, she threatened police & solicitors, next day I received a letter from a solicitor addressed to myself, this is the wording : 

TORTS (INTERFERENCE WITH GOODS) ACT 1977

TO: ThE OWNER OF ThE VEHICLe

We act on behalf of Westfield Housing Association

WE HEREBY GIVE YOU NOTICE pursuant to the Torts (Interference with Goods) Act

1977 that the vehicle (registration number of which is set out below) is unlawfully parked

upon private land and will be removed to a secure location if it is not collected by you on or

before 12pm on Monday 13th February 2022 (final collection date).

The vehicle is available for delivery to you and therefore you are under a legal obligation to

attend to collect the vehicle before the final collection date.

After it is removed, the vehicle will be available for collection upon reasonable notice of a

date and time for collection, and payment of our client's removal and storage fees (including

any fees for providing access to the vehicle once it has been removed and for supervision of

the collection of the vehicle).

Thereafter, if the vehicle is not collected within 7 days after the final collection date, we

hereby GIVE NOTICE that our client intends to sell the vehicle in accordance with the power

of sale set out in section 12(3) of said Act, and/or treat it as abandoned, and sell it at auction

or for scrap, or otherwise dispose of it, and use any money raised to set off the costs ofits

removal and sale including any incidental and storage costs.

You should contact:
(solicitors details etc here).

Now as far as I'm aware it isn't unlawful to park a vehicle on private land. They also stated it needed to be moved in 2022, would that stand up in court if they did remove the van?
The also didn't give even one full working day as notice as I received the letter Saturday afternoon threatening its removal Monday @ Noon.
There is no signage on the patch of land whatsoever. 

I kicked up a fuss with them all on Monday morning so they postponed & They turned up Tuesday just after 9am, 3 housing members & a tow truck with driver, blocking our street ha!
 Wife refused to remove herself from the back step of the van as they had also threatened to remove the van with our 16yr old Niece inside it (it is a camper conversion) along with agreeing they would damage the van & walls either side by trying to pull it out by its back wheels with limited manoeuvrability available.

They called the police, two cars arrived with sirens & blues Police agreed it was not a police matter & I had arrived by this point, police agreed we were calm & peaceful & there was absolutely no point to them being there.

They eventually left, tow guy & HA stayed, tow guy mocked me & they all acted rather childish tbh, but they then left after 2 HA women spoke to us & tried to get us to agree to keep them informed on when it was fixed to move it.

They are wanting to try & build on the land behind us, no planning application has been put forward since their last one was pulled & no notice to homeowners about when they will be on the land, land is elevated with a view directly into ours & our child's bedroom & bathrooms, their solution 'close your curtains'. Fml.

Legally, where do we stand re parking please?

Thank you. :-) 

Coupon-mad

Under section 56 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, clamping or towing away vehicles on private land is illegal. The Police COULD have stepped in because the attempt to remove the vehicle is, AFAIK, an offence. S56 says so.

I am not legally qualified but I fail to see how a (clearly non-abandoned) vehicle can be legally removed under tort law because it is a criminal offence under the POFA 2012 to remove it - read s56 - there are very few stated exceptions.

Your case reminded me of this article we discussed here in late 2022:
https://vanlifematters.co.uk/legal-dispute-erupts-after-tow-truck-took-leased-campervan

"The notice included a letter signed by Ms Kennedy addressed to National Parking Control, whose website allows owners or managers of private land to download a 28-day Tort Notice on the basis a vehicle parked on private land is abandoned.

Loredana responded to the removal notice, refuting the reasoning.

Loredana has hired solicitors RM Legal.

In a letter to UK TES on September 15, the legal firm said: “It is clearly a serious issue for yourselves that you have unlawfully seized and retained our client’s vehicle..."

The lady's name (the victim) is unusual.  See if you can find out her current situation by contacting her.  Could be useful.

Also, if you do find out where her case is at - and if she won the dispute - please could you tell us here what happened or ask her to post?

Very interested to know her final outcome.  And yours!

You must respond to the removal notice and might well need a solicitor but we think they CANNOT remove this vehicle if it isn't abandoned.

Which firms are named on the notice?

Fruitcake

I think it might be worth paying the few quid to the Land Registry that it costs to identify the landowner.

I believe it costs a few quid more and takes longer if you can only provide the location marked on a map, so you need a specific address such as lane/land between/behind *address 1* and *address 2*.

Good move on getting someone inside the camper van at the time. I believe it is illegal to move a vehicle in those circumstances. Getting a minor inside would be even better. 

If they turn up again, make sure you film them. It is perfectly legal even if they don't want to be filmed. Print off copies (plural) of the relevant part of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) as advised by C-m above and hand it to the HA and tow truck driver.
If they attempt to steal the vehicle then call the police, theft/TWOK in progress. If someone is inside the van then quote attempted kidnapping and risk to life/injury in progress as well.

Missymatrix

Thank you Coupon-Mad.

I will look into that case & see if that helps too

There are no firms named on the notice, that is everything it says minus the solicitors details at the bottom, there is no way to reply to it etc, I have spoken to the solicitors that issued it & he was adamant that they could & would tow it, they left on Tuesday without towing it & we haven't heard anything since, but expect it to kick off again next week.

I am not the 'legal' or named owner of the van, they have taken no steps to find the legal owner neither & solicitor stated they did not need to know or inform the legal owner & also stated I could tell the owner. 

Coupon-mad

Tell the owner to respond immediately (NOT BY PHONE!) citing s56 of the POFA 2012 and showing proof the van is taxed/ insured/ not abandoned.

A formal (written) response refuting the validity of the tort notice is required urgently.  Do not wait and see.

Send something similar to the HA.

Call the Police AGAIN if it happens and tell them it is NOT A CIVIL MATTER because towing away a non-abandoned vehicle is a specific criminal offence under s56 of the POFA 2012 and you expect Police to uphold the law.

Fruitcake

The DVLA only hold registered keeper details. There is no way for the HA or any of their agents to find out the identity of the owner unless the vehicle is hired/leased/financed, or if someone tells them, which of course you are not obliged to do.

I would actually write to the solicitors and quote the relevant part of the PoFA that prohibits clamping and towing, pointing out that it would be a criminal offence to do so, and the police will be called if any attempt to steal/TWOK the vehicle is made.

From memory, it cost one company, NCP I think, £80k when they unlawfully towed somebody's car.

If you can find that on the web you could quote that case at them as well.

Coupon-mad

Yes: in Mayhook v NCP, that parking firm confiscated Mr Mayhook's car and refused to return it. After a long legal battle they found themselves a five figure sum lighter.

Back in September 2011, James Mayhook parked in a railway station car park, bought a ticket, and later his vehicle was towed away by NCP for alleged non-payment of previous tickets, some 30 in total. (He wasn’t the driver for all of these).

As usual, the Police were no help at all, “It’s a civil matter sir”.

That was a car seized for "unpaid parking charges" which is also illegal (without a court order /bailiff situation).

Galloglass

All of the above regarding towing is correct and the HA has been misinformed about the powers they can use. In other cases, where there has been trespass (and this looks very much like trespass) the HA can apply to the court for an Order / Injunction against the "offending" party. Costs for doing this are high but the costs would be against the van owners if successful. 

You could email someone on this list to come to some sort of agreement to avoid them having to take the van owner to court.

https://www.westfieldha.org.uk/page/our-staff

Missymatrix

Thanks all. 
I emailed a few people from the HA, their solicitor & the towing company quoting PoFA again etc, but all went ignored.

Van has since been moved after they cracked the windscreen directly under where they placed the notice, however a mobility car displaying blue badge has now parked there yesterday, that has received a notice this afternoon threatening it will be removed tomorrow...


TO: Persons unknown & other occupiers of the land. 

Notice to vacate land at - destination. 

They state you are here without consent, trespassing etc, must vacate with your property & vehicles. 

Failure to move will result in landowners exercising self-help to remove as per common law Halsburys law & have instructed certified bailiffs to do so on their behalf. 

Police may also attend & envoke powers pursuant to sec 61.

Ends with 'neither this company nor the landowners will be liable for damage to any vehicles or property illegally situated on this private property'. 


Am I right in saying that both laws they have quoted wouldn't apply here & PoFA still stands?? No human is on the land nor inhabiting it, nor any property, just one vehicle. 

Thanks so much  

Galloglass

Am I right in saying that both laws they have quoted wouldn't apply here & PoFA still stands?? No human is on the land nor inhabiting it, nor any property, just one vehicle. 

Clamping and removal is OK as long as there is "lawful authority". The HA may have already applied for and been granted "lawful authority". If the car goes, the person would need to apply to the court for it's return and may find out, to their cost, the authority is in place.

Seems that people are misunderstanding the issue. All land is owned by someone so if it is not yours, you are bound by the rules the owner puts on the property are long as they are a) lawful and b) do not breach the penalty principle. POFA and Beavis clarified the issues.

So whoever is parking, dumping, leaving (choose whichever word you want) their cars, vans, other items on the property may see an owner get lawful authority from a court and then back charge the person with the costs of obtaining that authority - which can be expensive. Removal costs, court costs etc would also be added to the bill.

Seems like an expensive game to be playing.

Missymatrix

Thanks Galloglass, this vehicle has only been there for 2 days & as far as I'm aware the HA have not given any notice to owner etc, would they have obtained 'lawful authority' from a court in 2 days for a specific vehicle?
Or would it not matter what vehicle it was?

If this is a case of a blue badge driver parking somewhere they were unaware they couldn't park, would this still be grounds to tow it?

There is nothing at all on the note to state who the company is or what to do if the car gets towed etc, is that right?

Thank you.