Rights in relation to software updates affecting product performance.

dbsevern

I recently read the article regarding consumer rights when a piece of technology is not fit for purpose.  Where does a consumer stand if they have purchased a perfectly good piece of tech, but a subsequent software update by the manufacturer appears to have rendered it unfit for purpose?  I have a Garmin watch, purchased second hand from Ebay which worked fine for a number of months.  It then stopped recording running activities - turning off randomly during the run, while continuing to work fine in all other respects fitness monitoring etc).  I believe this was caused by a software update from the manufacturer.  A number of other users of the same watch report a similar issue in recent months, so it looks like something that started happening on update to me.  Garmin support say there is no way to roll back the software to see if it improves, so unless they admit it may have been caused by them and investigate, we are left with technology that is no longer fit for purpose, having effectively been broken by the manufacturer.  Where can we go from here - Garmin have offered to see me a reconditioned watch, but if it is software that has caused the issue, it would also go wrong as soon as it updated to the latest version.  As it is an older model of watch, I doubt Garmin are particularly interested in spending time looking into it.

Aylesbury_Duck

Your consumer rights lie with the person you bought it from, so Garmin don't have to help at all.  I suspect any warranty has run out by now, but even then, the warranty rights almost certainly reside with the original purchaser.  What model is it?

The upshot is that if Garmin are unwilling to help, you can't force them to do so.  Taking their offer of selling you a reconditioned watch might be the best bet.

dbsevern

Thanks for the reply Aylesbury_Duck - it is a Forerunner 45s.  There seem to be quite a few other owners reporting very similar issues lately, hence me thinking something must have changed, but as you say, I can't really go back to the original shop.  Even if I was the original purchaser, not sure it would feel right going back to the shop for something the manufacturer had "inflicted" and don't think I'd be able to prove it anyway - you don't see the issue until some point on your run!

Might stick to using my phone for recording runs and cut my losses.

HillStreetBlues

Did they say the reconditioned watch would be the same?
If they know there is a fault might sent you one that won't have the same problem.

tightauldgit

Take the offer of a reconditioned watch and see if it has the same issue? Presumably Garmin would not send you one if they expected it to have the same problem. 

Grumpy_chap

Copied this from the other thread:

Grumpy_chap said:

dbsevern said:

I have a related question on this subject.  Where does a consumer stand if they have purchased a perfectly good piece of tech, but a subsequent software update by the manufacturer appears to have rendered it unfit for purpose?  I have a Garmin watch, purchased second hand from Ebay (so no recourse to original seller) which worked fine for a number of months.  It then stopped recording running activities - turning off randomly during the run, and I believe this was caused by a software update from the manufacturer.  

How do you know it was the software update that caused the problem with recording activities?  If it was the cause then it is quite likely that the next software update will correct the glitch.

I have a Garmin watch and, a couple of times, it has paused recording an activity part-way through.  It could be because I inadvertently touched the screen.  I actually think the most likely cause in my case is that the battery was low, so the watch reduced the amount of stuff it was doing (recording activity) to allow duration to extend.  I cannot prove that.

How old is the watch in question? 
I really only think these types of device have a life-span of 2 -3 years.  This watch was second-hand and then worked fine for "a number of months".  Is the device (and battery state of health) new enough to avoid this type of glitch event?
Again, comparing to my Garmin - when it was brand new, the type of glitch I experienced in the past few week was not something that would happen.  I bought my watch just before lock-down, so it is now approaching 3 years old.  This type of reducing performance matches my previous experience with previous devices.

Hope that helps.

dbsevern

Thanks for the replies fellow forumites.  The price they are offering the reconditioned watch for is more than it would cost me to get another from ebay or similar - I guess it may give me some comeback with them if it doesn't work, but honestly more than I want to spend on it.  I don't know it will fail in the same way, but if the problem is software related, can't see why it wouldn't.

Grumpy_chap - I don't "know" it is related to the update, just a suspicion when you see the raft of other users with similar issues recently.  To me it is either a software issue, or something age-related.  I would guess the watch is 2-3 years, but I think something like this should last longer than that - tech (and the resources needed to make it) is not cheap, financially or environmentally - I'm just an optimist and would like things to last.  It is a shame as the watch did what I needed until recently.  I don't think it is battery related, as it does the same even when fully charged, and it completely shuts down, but will let you turn it back on again (sometimes after a period of time), and then shows plenty of battery, and carries on with other functions for days - just doesn't seem to like to record activities (which to me is it's main function).  I guess I'll retire it for a while and see if any new software versions come out that magically fix it, but it they don't think it is a problem, then why would they look to correct it?

tightauldgit

When you say there's been a software update do you mean they've updated the system software on the watch or have they updated the app? 

I'd be slightly surprised if they are updating software on a three or more year old piece of hardware specifically (unless its standard SW that runs on multiple devices?). Is it possible simply that your hardware is considered out of date and no longer supported by Garmin and therefore the new software hasn't been tested to run on the device? 

It does seem weird that there is no way to rollback an update. No factory reset option and then turn updates off? 

Grumpy_chap

dbsevern said:

I would guess the watch is 2-3 years, but I think something like this should last longer than that - tech (and the resources needed to make it) is not cheap, financially or environmentally 

I agree with you, particularly on the environmental impact.
BUT, these are not watches - they are mini computers that you strap to your wrist and have them on all the time constantly monitoring and doing stuff.
When thought of like that, they really are cheap (financially) and will only have a limited life-span.  Given all that, I'd say 2 or 3 years is the expected life.  What reason do you think the previous owner put the device on sale?

tightauldgit said:

I'd be slightly surprised if they are updating software on a three or more year old piece of hardware specifically (unless its standard SW that runs on multiple devices?). 

Garmin do update the software on older device, it is all done over-the-air.  My Garmin watch (bought just before the very first lockdown) has done a couple of software updates this year already.  When I bought the device, it was end-of-sale cycle.

dbsevern said:

something age-related. 
 I don't think it is battery related, as it does the same even when fully charged, and it completely shuts down, but will let you turn it back on again (sometimes after a period of time), and then shows plenty of battery, and carries on with other functions for days - just doesn't seem to like to record activities (which to me is it's main function).  

Sounds exactly like an age-related battery issue to me.
These watches charge until the device decides it is fully charged.  That reduces, in part based on age, in part based on charge profile so the battery charge thinks it is fully charged when not and the capacity reduces.
When doing not very much, not displaying the screen, the charge life can be reasonable (for example, when asleep). 
As soon as you start exercising, the power demand rises exponentially with the screen live, all those sensors, recording the data, live alerts for too slow / fast pace, instant assessment of whether you got a record or not.  It is doing a lot of processing all in real time and all in the watch.  Then instantly transferring that via bluetooth to the phone.
The power off is sometimes total (proper flat battery) and sometimes "apparent" (display off, buttons off) but still recording base data (heart rate, steps) which is what you describe as "will let you turn it back on again".

EDIT: at the beginning of this year, I started doing ParkRun.  Two out of the first three runs, the watch ran out of puff at around 3k mark.  Since then, I have made two changes.  First, I charge the watch over breakfast before the ParkRun (whether I think it needs charging or not).  Second, I leave my phone at home (so no bluetooth power while running).  That has been sufficient to ensure the battery lasts the distance.  It is also worth noting that battery life will be sapped by the cold weather if you have been doing outdoor runs.

I return to the question, why did the previous owner decide to sell a 2 or 3 yo mini-computer?

dbsevern

I believe the previous owner was just upgrading to the latest shiniest model, hence moving on unwanted tech. Worked fine when I got it, so I've no issue with the seller.  As you say, unfortunately probably age, but as I work in IT, when something starts going awry not long after an update, you do go back and check it is not related.  As a last resort I may try a factory reset to see what version of the software it takes me back to. Already tried using it with bluetooth turned off, but made no difference.  Thanks for your input all.

born_again

Is it while running GPS to track a run?