Honest advice please - PCN at hospital, next stage court, would you continue?

disbelief1

Hello Forum,

 

I have read the forum newbie threads and even searched by keywords relating to my situation however the answers I am looking are potentially more experienced opinion and I can seem to find the same situation when searching the forum.

 

So, the reason for my post and providing the full information is that I cant find anything to tell me in the forum if my ‘reason’ is actually viewed by the courts as a genuine one and taken into consideration, most of what I find in the successful cases is when signage, wording, regulation hasn’t been correct via the parking operator, there is factual dispute, or the charge has already been dropped by approaching PALS or appealing.  The fact no one has helped me so far is making my confidence waiver when others with issues at hospitals appear from the forums to have had the charges rescinded by the point I am at. 

 

I’m asking for our experience please of whether I do actually have a case ( at court ), because if I don’t I will just pay up and get this over with as its quite stressful and I definitely don’t want a CCJ if I was defeated in court.

 

 

I will try and be as brief and factual as possible to ease any answers:

 

We were travelling in our own car to hospital for birth of 3rd child last year.

 

On the 20 minutes journey it became obvious things were suddenly progressing quickly (!)

 

We were advised by the midwife team to just park up at the hospital entrance and run in due to estimated time remaining.

 

We did exactly this, in what looked like a proper space and not blocking ambulances, other vehicles etc.

 

We were in what I would call a life / death situation, certainly an emergency medical situation. The baby was born just 6 minutes after closing the door to leave our car.

 

After the birth and everything was a bit calmer I was given a parking permit paper by the midwife to put in the car as I made them aware we just parked up and ran as instructed.

 

On my return to the car, due to now having the ability to look around, I could see that the car was in a drop off / collection zone area where cars aren’t to be left parked.

 

A few weeks later we got a parking charge notice which had been recorded by an attendant, not static CCTV, the time was 3 minutes after arrival, and 3 minutes prior to birth.

 

I immediately appealed and gave my extenuating circumstances as above and truly believed I would get a swift response congratulating us and advising the charge would be rescinded. ( Yes, I now know I shouldn’t have admitted to being the driver or responded etc. having read the forum, I had no idea to search forums first as I thought this was a clear and obvious reason to have left the car where we did and the issue would go no further. )

 

I then received a rejection response of sorry you parked in a bay marked not for parking, the ticket was correctly issued and you need to pay up or appeal to IAS.

 

I did this and explained fully the situation and timeline of 6 minutes to birth and therefore no time to assess parking other than being left in a safe manner at the time due to the circumstance etc.

( Again I am now aware this is a kangaroo court via the forum ) I got a note of sympathy with the situation but that the ticket was still issued correctly in isolation and therefore appeal is rejected.

 

I have since approached the original parking charge notice operator who have said they do sympathise but nothing more they can do to help as the appeal has been rejected their end and also by IAS. 

 

I have contacted PALS who say process has changed and they no longer have power over the enforcement agent the NHS trust has employed on their land ( not what I thought given the link I found in the forum about NHS parking guidance 2022 which intimates situations such as this will be considered and not dealt with onerously ).  They did though email my concerns straight to the enforcement agent who replied to them stating the appeals process is now complete and that everyone that goes to hospital has an emergency and the laws of the parking and signage must be followed by all and can’t be rescinded at will due to emergencies.  PALS will not give me the facilities manager name and have said write a postal letter in.  They have suggested I approach my MP.

 

I am now on my 4th letter by a debt recovery agent asking for an inflated fee to settle on behalf of the enforcement agent.  I have never replied.  They are also emailing me at the same rate. They have said the case meets requirement for court and is with the clients solicitors etc., as it would be because I parked somewhere that says you cant park there - I have never disputed the legality of the ticket vs. the rules.  From the forum I now expect another couple of letters (?) before court or requesting my defence for a court case.  I understand it that the inflated fee portion may be thrown out at court due to previous case precedence.

 

 

I was quite confident to let this go to court so I could explain and show my evidence ( time of birth document, time of ticket, letter from midwife on headed paper asking for ticket to be rescinded and explaining the circumstance, parking permit from hospital to place in car after birth ) – I was 99% sure a judge would surely agree that I had very mitigating circumstances and I shouldn’t be expecting to give birth with my wife in the hospital foyer with the risks to life that carries by driving past the hospital entrance to a large car park further on, not to mention time looking for a space and paying the at the machine – the timeline shows anything other than what we did would have meant we didn’t make the delivery suite. ( it takes circa 4 minutes from the space we used to the delivery suite. )

 

I also was quite happy to be defeated at court and then pay the court costs and the inflated fine amount because I was under the impression that if you do this you do not actually get a CCJ judgement against your name and that the CCJ judgment is just for those that then don’t pay the fine and court costs in a certain space of time.  The latest received collection letter says if I lose in court I get the CCJ judgement immediately at that point and will affect credit rating etc.  If this is the case and combined with potentially not having a robust defence as I thought I did, it just isn’t worth it to me to go to court even if I think I am right; I don’t want to turn up to court and say it was a genuine emergency if they don’t accept that and get a credit affecting CCJ to boot.

 

 

Sorry for the long ‘brief’ summary but I think I needed to give you everything above from reading the newbie ruleset – I have been following the forum since my IAS rejection.

 

 

Thanks in advance.

Not_A_Hope

Firstly I would write and complain to the Chief Executive of the hospital and bypass PALS and middle management at the hospital if they are not being helpful. Remind them of the government parking principles.

NHS car parking guidance 2021 for NHS trusts and NHS foundation trusts - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) 

If this is not successful you should keep on ignoring letters from debt collectors. You only need to act if you receive a letter before claim. Do not ignore it and come back for more support.

The only way you could get a CCJ is if they submitted a claim and you did not defend it or if you lost and did not pay what the judge ordered within 30 days. However most judges would understand this was an emergency and consider (as per the case of Jopson v Homeguard) it to be a ‘small vicissitude’. The fact the medical staff told you to park where you did would probably go in your favour as far as a judge is concerned. The scam PPC and the joke IAS are only after your money and would rarely allow any appeal.

disbelief1

Thank you Not_A_Hope. 
I will do that, I have found the facilities manager on LinkedIn to contact but may as well go to chief Exec.
I will return here if this continues to the letter before claim.
In that case, I'm happy to go and defend myself and the event if the outcome could be a loss to me and costs to pay ,but no actual risk of a CCJ if I'm paying by the deadlines given.

Thanks again,

B789

You have a winnable case here if the PPC is actually stupid enough to let this go to court. At the moment, the bottom-dwelling scammers are just trying everything they can to get gullible victims to pay up. It matters not one iota the circumstances as far as they are concerned.

As you've obviously read the Newbies post and understood most of it, you will get stellar assistance on this forum should this case go any further. For now, you can safely ignore all the threatening letters from the debt collection firms. They are just parasites that are employed by the PPC to try and scare you into paying the alleged debt plus their illegal add-on fees. DO NOT engage with the debt collection companies in any form whatsoever. Nothing they write can affect you and their scare tactics about CCJs are distorted to instil fear in the uninitiated.

In the meantime you need to be taking a much harder stance with PALS and making them aware that the NHS Trust is equally and jointly liable for the actions of their agents. You have ample evidence that this was an emergency and the fact that they are not willing to insist that the PPC cancel the PCN, you are going to hold them equally liable if this ever goes to court. The expert regulars on here will advise more precisely.

Until you get an LBC, you don't have to do anything else with regards to the PCN and the alleged debt. If you get an LBC, the Newbies thread explains all the steps and you will get excellent advice on how to beat these scammers here on this thread.

You already know that even if you were to lose a court case, you would not pay the inflated charge and as long as the CCJ was fully paid within 30 days of issue, it would be "satisfied" and no record of it would ever show on your credit file.

So, as to your initial question... "should you continue"...100% yes. 

Fruitcake

Complain to your MP, and contact local and national press as well.

Le_Kirk

disbelief1 said:

Thank you Not_A_Hope. 
I will do that, I have found the facilities manager on LinkedIn to contact but may as well go to chief Exec.
I will return here if this continues to the letter before claim.
In that case, I'm happy to go and defend myself and the event if the outcome could be a loss to me and costs to pay ,but no actual risk of a CCJ if I'm paying by the deadlines given.

Thanks again,

Do write to the Chief Exec and point out how unhelpful THEIR PALS has been.  I reiterate what others have written about risk of CCJ (small) and how threatening debt collectors try to be but they are toothless! 

1505grandad

Whoi is the ppc?

fisherjim

They did though email my concerns straight to the enforcement agent who replied to them stating the appeals process is now complete and that everyone that goes to hospital has an emergency and the laws of the parking and signage must be followed by all and can’t be rescinded at will due to emergencies.

Utter rubbish these are private parking terms and conditions, the PPC can cancel the charge at any time they like no laws have been breached and everyone parking at hospital is not attending an emergency.

They have said the case meets requirement for court and is with the clients solicitors etc

I doubt it is with their robo-claim solicitor or the debt collection idiots would not still be begging you to pay it as they will have been put out of the picture and lost their fee.

I have since approached the original parking charge notice operator who have said they do sympathise but nothing more they can do to help as the appeal has been rejected their end and also by IAS.

Another lie.

The latest received collection letter says if I lose in court I get the CCJ judgement immediately at that point and will affect credit rating etc.

Can you post a redacted screen shot of that I'm sure @Coupon-mad would love to see that lie in print for her records.

Coupon-mad

We'd like to see those misleading letters!

Which PPC?

disbelief1

Evening all, well I'm blown away by your support.
I didn't mention the PPC as I thought I might identify the case, as they read the forums I read - the PPC is Wise Parking and the recovery agent is Trace.
I haven't been worried by their scare tactics thus far, I'm still though in disbelief as the username suggests that they do actually operate this way, it isn't just anecdotal hearsay.  
I posted because I had become worried about a court outcome because of a lack of leniency so far and any negative judgements impact to me - I now do not feel that risk thanks to your CCJ process clarification and will approach the board again if I get an LBC.
Coupon-mad, I will post the redacted letter when home over the weekend, fyi it may not have been verbatim to what I wrote here but it was certainly that sentiment. 
I actually have been quite stern with PALS, in the end, using the type of wording found on the forum with regards to duty to patients, responsible for overseeing the PPC, formal complaint etc and they have been surprisingly dismissive, in the end  They did forward me the PPC's replies to their 'queries' rather than just relay made up information at least.  I really like the idea of letting PALS know about holding them jointly liable in regards to court, I will also send them one last message and well as th either contact points I have been advised to try.
Again, thank you all.

KeithP

disbelief1 said:

 I really like the idea of letting PALS know about holding them jointly liable in regards to court...

Yes, I think you should.

Others have already mentioned it, and the NHS car parking guidance 2022 for NHS trusts and NHS foundation trusts has useful content...

Seems quite clear to me.