Renting - 4 adults on an AST as Joint Tenants?

Cola133

Can 4 names be listed on an Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement, as Joint Tenants? Not sure if the area makes a difference, but in case it does, this is in Rother District Council. Its a Retired Mother, her 2 adult mature daughters and one of the daughters long term partner. The house is a large 3 double bed, with 1 kitchen, 1 lounge and 1 bathroom.

The retired mother and 1 daughter both receive housing benefit, but the letting agent only wants to list the working daughter and her partner as joint tenants with the mother and non-working daughter as 'allowed to live there', but that would mean they couldn't claim housing benefit as they are not listed as Joint Tenants. Any help would be gratefully received thank you

_Penny_Dreadful

Cola133 said:

Can 4 names be listed on an Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement, as Joint Tenants? Not sure if the area makes a difference, but in case it does, this is in Rother District Council. Its a Retired Mother, her 2 adult mature daughters and one of the daughters long term partner. The house is a large 3 double bed, with 1 kitchen, 1 lounge and 1 bathroom.

The retired mother and 1 daughter both receive housing benefit, but the letting agent only wants to list the working daughter and her partner as joint tenants with the mother and non-working daughter as 'allowed to live there', but that would mean they couldn't claim housing benefit as they are not listed as Joint Tenants. Any help would be gratefully received thank you

Has the letting agent said why they only want two people names as joint tenants and the other two as permitted occupiers? There’s no reason why 4 people cannot be named as joint tenants on an AST. It is very common in the case of student lets to have more than 4 people named as tenants on an AST so it’s definitely possible. 

Cola133

_Penny_Dreadful said:

Cola133 said:

Can 4 names be listed on an Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement, as Joint Tenants? Not sure if the area makes a difference, but in case it does, this is in Rother District Council. Its a Retired Mother, her 2 adult mature daughters and one of the daughters long term partner. The house is a large 3 double bed, with 1 kitchen, 1 lounge and 1 bathroom.

The retired mother and 1 daughter both receive housing benefit, but the letting agent only wants to list the working daughter and her partner as joint tenants with the mother and non-working daughter as 'allowed to live there', but that would mean they couldn't claim housing benefit as they are not listed as Joint Tenants. Any help would be gratefully received thank you

Has the letting agent said why they only want two people names as joint tenants and the other two as permitted occupiers? There’s no reason why 4 people cannot be named as joint tenants on an AST. It is very common in the case of student lets to have more than 4 people named as tenants on an AST so it’s definitely possible. 

No, no reason was given. I wonder if they should just go back and say that they would only want to rent the property with all 4 as equal joint tenants, but I think they would lose the property, as its simpler for the LL to just rent to two people. I have been googling to see if there is a limit on how many people can be joint tenants, but there doesn't seem to be a 100% answer online; its starts to mention the tenancy as an HMO?? They just want a joint tenancy, seems simple, but maybe it isn't.

_Penny_Dreadful

Cola133 said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

Cola133 said:

Can 4 names be listed on an Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement, as Joint Tenants? Not sure if the area makes a difference, but in case it does, this is in Rother District Council. Its a Retired Mother, her 2 adult mature daughters and one of the daughters long term partner. The house is a large 3 double bed, with 1 kitchen, 1 lounge and 1 bathroom.

The retired mother and 1 daughter both receive housing benefit, but the letting agent only wants to list the working daughter and her partner as joint tenants with the mother and non-working daughter as 'allowed to live there', but that would mean they couldn't claim housing benefit as they are not listed as Joint Tenants. Any help would be gratefully received thank you

Has the letting agent said why they only want two people names as joint tenants and the other two as permitted occupiers? There’s no reason why 4 people cannot be named as joint tenants on an AST. It is very common in the case of student lets to have more than 4 people named as tenants on an AST so it’s definitely possible. 

No, no reason was given. I wonder if they should just go back and say that they would only want to rent the property with all 4 as equal joint tenants, but I think they would lose the property, as its simpler for the LL to just rent to two people. I have been googling to see if there is a limit on how many people can be joint tenants, but there doesn't seem to be a 100% answer online; its starts to mention the tenancy as an HMO?? They just want a joint tenancy, seems simple, but maybe it isn't.

As the landlord it will make little difference to you in practical terms if there are 4 tenants or 2 tenants and 2 permitted occupiers. With everyone being named a tenant that gives you 4 people to chase in the case of rent arrears or damage to the property instead of just 2.  

This is a mother her 2 daughters and the daughter of a partner so in terms of a HMO that sounds like 4 people living together as a single family unit and therefore not subject to HMO licensing. 

From Rother District Council:

A landlord must have a licence for a privately rented HMO if the property meets the following criteria:

1. Occupied by five or more people
2. Those people form two or more households
3. Those occupants share one or more basic amenity

A household is defined as being members of the same family living together including:

1. Couples married to each other or living together as a couple in a relationship
2. Relatives living together, including parents, grandparents, children (and step-children), grandchildren, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, nephews, niece or cousins
3. Half-relatives will be treated as full relatives. A foster child living with their foster parents is treated as living in the same household
4. Any domestic staff are also included in the household if they are living rent-free in accommodation provided by the person for whom they are working
5. More than two lodgers living with you and your family

silvercar

Maybe something to do with insurer insisting on working or retired tenants.

theartfullodger

Yes, AST with 4 adults is entirely legal. 5 or more becomes contractually difficult .

But would it (legally) overcrowded?  See shelter website in the matter.

propertyrental

_Penny_Dreadful said:

Cola133 said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

Cola133 said:

Can 4 names be listed on an Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement, as Joint Tenants? Not sure if the area makes a difference, but in case it does, this is in Rother District Council. Its a Retired Mother, her 2 adult mature daughters and one of the daughters long term partner. The house is a large 3 double bed, with 1 kitchen, 1 lounge and 1 bathroom.

The retired mother and 1 daughter both receive housing benefit, but the letting agent only wants to list the working daughter and her partner as joint tenants with the mother and non-working daughter as 'allowed to live there', but that would mean they couldn't claim housing benefit as they are not listed as Joint Tenants. Any help would be gratefully received thank you

Has the letting agent said why they only want two people names as joint tenants and the other two as permitted occupiers? There’s no reason why 4 people cannot be named as joint tenants on an AST. It is very common in the case of student lets to have more than 4 people named as tenants on an AST so it’s definitely possible. 

No, no reason was given. I wonder if they should just go back and say that they would only want to rent the property with all 4 as equal joint tenants, but I think they would lose the property, as its simpler for the LL to just rent to two people. I have been googling to see if there is a limit on how many people can be joint tenants, but there doesn't seem to be a 100% answer online; its starts to mention the tenancy as an HMO?? They just want a joint tenancy, seems simple, but maybe it isn't.

As the landlord it will make little difference to you in practical terms if there are 4 tenants or 2 tenants and 2 permitted occupiers. With everyone being named a tenant that gives you 4 people to chase in the case of rent arrears or damage to the property instead of just 2.  

A landlord must have a licence for a privately rented HMO if the property meets the following criteria:

1. Occupied by five or more people
2. Those people form two or more households
3. Those occupants share one or more basic amenity

A household is defined as being members of the same family living together including:

1. Couples married to each other or living together as a couple in a relationship
2. Relatives living together, including parents, grandparents, children (and step-children), grandchildren, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, nephews, niece or cousins
3. Half-relatives will be treated as full relatives. A foster child living with their foster parents is treated as living in the same household
4. Any domestic staff are also included in the household if they are living rent-free in accommodation provided by the person for whom they are working
5. More than two lodgers living with you and your family

Indeed. Far better to have all 4 as named joint tenants. That's 4 people to chase for rent arrears or damage instead of 2.

silvercar has suggested the only rational explanation, which may or may not be relevant here.

silvercar

May also be that the estate agent only credit checks those on the AST, so it keeps the fees down.

Also means that if one tenant of the 4 wanted to leave the contract would need to be rewritten, with only 2 on the tenancy the others aren't constrained and the 2 are liable for the full rent if one of the other two leave.

BungalowBel

Maybe the two non-working ones would fail the referencing?

_Penny_Dreadful

BungalowBel said:

Maybe the two non-working ones would fail the referencing?

Ultimately it’s down to the OP, not the letting agent, who passes and who fails. 

propertyrental

_Penny_Dreadful said:

BungalowBel said:

Maybe the two non-working ones would fail the referencing?

Ultimately it’s down to the OP, not the letting agent, who passes and who fails. 

I may be wrong but I had assumed the OP was either one of the applicants (prospective tenants), or a friend of theirs giving them advice.

But your point is right - it's usually the LL's decision. Exceptions might be were the LL has delegated all decisions to the agent (overseas LLs often do this), or where the LL simply never queries the agent's 'advice'.