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Nursing home fees query - will shortfall of fees need to re-paid to council? (Mindfield!)

Writing on behalf of a good friend who wants advice, aware he will need to get expert legal advice ultimately but having had people (including professionals) voicing completely differing opinions, thought he could come here first, to see if anyone here could help make situation clearer first.

I will try and keep brief:

My friend (we will call him Fred) owns his home with his wife, (as Joint Tenants) outright, no mortgage. Worth 400k.

His wife (lets call her Doris) has been in a nursing home 5 years.

Fees £1,300 a week. Half of which or there abouts is funded through her benefits and additional NHS funding I believe is called something like? NFC.

This leaves a shortfall approx. a week of £700, which Fred believes the council are paying, presently.

When Fred’s wife, Doris went in to the nursing home, Fred is unable to recall all the details paperwork etc

The question is if his wife passes on will the shortfall debt the council has been paying each week, be written off by the council? Or when Fred dies if he passes away after his wife, will the debt be recovered by the council when the property is then sold.

In addition, if Fred’s wife was to pass away first, would he be able to move house as he thinks there is a ‘’marker’’ on his property?

I have tried to googling all of this to help Fred, without any avail, any pointers, answers or advice would be greatly appreciated.

I hope I have put on correct board please feel free to move and thank you again.

«1

Comments

  • elsien
    elsien Posts: 35,044 Forumite
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    edited 4 February 2023 at 11:20PM
    The property should be disregarded in the financial assessment because of the spouse still living there.
    That would change if Fred also needed residential care and was no longer living there. 
    https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs38_property_and_paying_for_residential_care_fcs.pdf

    If he’s unsure about the position he should contact the local authority and get clarification. But there shouldn’t be a deferred payment charge on the property as things stand.

    The health payment you’re thinking of is FNC, funded nursing care. That’s just something that’s paid to the care home for her additional needs and has no impact on the financial assessment.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
  • janthemum
    janthemum Posts: 487 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture
    elsien said:
    The property should be disregarded in the financial assessment because of the spouse still living there.
    That would change if Fred also needed residential care and was no longer living there. 
    https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs38_property_and_paying_for_residential_care_fcs.pdf

    If he’s unsure about the position he should contact the local authority and get clarification. But there shouldn’t be a deferred payment charge on the property as things stand.

    The health payment you’re thinking of is FNC, funded nursing care. That’s just something that’s paid to the care home for her additional needs and has no impact on the financial assessment.
    Thank you for taking the time to answer.
    So if Fred's wife was to sadly pass first, it seems that Fred will have to pay none of the money back from their jointly owned house, as his property had been disregarded as he was living there when his wife went into nursing care 5 years ago as he was still living there.

    Which would then mean if she was to pass away before him he could sell the property to downsize, say to a 220k property, and not have to pay any money back which the council has been topping up each week over the last 5 years, in a sense giving him the 180k equity on the house (just by taking the figures above as examples) as money for him?

    He was under the impression this was the case but then wondered why there was a ''marker'' on his property if there was no deferred payment charge on his property (DPC). Perhaps this ''marker'' is there in the interim, in case Fred decided to move to a smaller and cheaper property while his wife is still residing in the nursing home, and then some of this profit would be taken by the council?

    He is looking both long-term, which now appears clear, and what he was of the belief would happen (although different people including professionals had disputed this). And he is also looking short-term, ie. presently Fred feels a house half the size would be more appropriate and cheaper to run for himself, and wonders, if this 180k profit ( as outlined above as an example), profit on their jointly owned house (Joint Tenant), would be purely his, or due to the ''marker'' on the property, would half or all need to be re-paid to the council (as appears the council has been paying the shortfall weekly which so far must have added up to about 150k at least), or would it all simply be disregarded as no deferred payment charge (DPC) on the property?

    In which case, if no DPC why else do they put this ''marker''?

    So sorry for all the questions! as elsien, ultimately you have answered/confirmed the main question Fred had wanted to know and had hoped was the case. He however also feels in limbo now as to what he can do. I know people may say, ''ask the caseworker'', etc but that is where one problem lies, different professional people come back with different answers each of whom is convinced what they are saying is the facts for Fred, but counteract what their colleagues have said which compounds the confusion! 


  • Pollycat
    Pollycat Posts: 35,352 Forumite
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    janthemum said:

    In addition, if Fred’s wife was to pass away first, would he be able to move house as he thinks there is a ‘’marker’’ on his property?


    janthemum said:
    elsien said:
    The property should be disregarded in the financial assessment because of the spouse still living there.
    That would change if Fred also needed residential care and was no longer living there. 
    https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs38_property_and_paying_for_residential_care_fcs.pdf

    If he’s unsure about the position he should contact the local authority and get clarification. But there shouldn’t be a deferred payment charge on the property as things stand.

    The health payment you’re thinking of is FNC, funded nursing care. That’s just something that’s paid to the care home for her additional needs and has no impact on the financial assessment.

    He was under the impression this was the case but then wondered why there was a ''marker'' on his property if there was no deferred payment charge on his property (DPC). Perhaps this ''marker'' is there in the interim, in case Fred decided to move to a smaller and cheaper property while his wife is still residing in the nursing home, and then some of this profit would be taken by the council?



    By 'marker' do you mean 'charging order'?
    Fred seems unsure if a charging order exists.

    I believe you can check with the Land Registry if a charging order has been placed on a property.
  • Keep_pedalling
    Keep_pedalling Posts: 19,223 Forumite
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    Does she still have mental capacity? If not does he have power of attorney? There should be no problem with with downsizing after her death, but if the answer to both those questions is no, then he would have great difficulty if he needed to downsize while she is still alive. 
  • elsien
    elsien Posts: 35,044 Forumite
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    edited 5 February 2023 at 9:37AM
    Unless he applies for deputyship which isn’t a quick process. 

    OP, I can’t see why there would be a deferred payment charge in the house. He needs  to clarify what he means by a marker, and who has told him there is one there? Which professionals has he been talking to? He needs to ignore the social workers and go directly to the financial assessment department for copies of the paperwork and details of what agreement was reached.  Did she have other assets over the 23.5K which may be being included. I believe that joint assets (house ) aside may count as 50/50 but could be wrong about that. 

    Is he getting confused and anything that showing up on the property is to do with the mortgage/any secured loans  rather than his wifes care needs? 
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
  • Keep_pedalling
    Keep_pedalling Posts: 19,223 Forumite
    Ninth Anniversary 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    For clarification it would be worth spending £3 on downloading the title register.

    https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds
  • Thank you so much to everyone, a little later, I will answer all the additional questions you have all raised on a point-by-point basis, but will do this shortly, when I get back from church and have time to concentrate on doing this. So will be back soon!
    Thank you so much!

  • ''By 'marker' do you mean 'charging order'?
    Fred seems unsure if a charging order exists.

    I believe you can check with the Land Registry if a charging order has been placed on a property.''
    Pollycat, thank you for your reply. (above)

    I believe Fred does mean 'charging order' he is using his laymen's terms  of 'marker' I believe for this.
    But now aware as you and also Keep-pedalling have advised, this can be checked with the Land Registry. Thank you Keep-peddling for the link.
    That now is No1) in the plan of things to do to gain clarity.
  • Does she still have mental capacity? If not does he have power of attorney? There should be no problem with with downsizing after her death, but if the answer to both those questions is no, then he would have great difficulty if he needed to downsize while she is still alive. 
    In answer to these two questions:
    No Fred's wife does NOT have mental capacity.
    And
    No Fred does NOT have power of attorney (he now realises the importance of having had this, but left it too late to apply at the time.)
    He appreciates what you are saying regarding, him now having great difficulty due to this.

    However,  by having clarity and being clear about what he can and cannot do, or what he is or is not entitled to etc,, is of great help, as up until now, he has been somewhat muddled. Knowing the facts of the situation he feels enables him to plan. Thank you.
  • elsien said:
    Unless he applies for deputyship which isn’t a quick process. 

    OP, I can’t see why there would be a deferred payment charge in the house. He needs  to clarify what he means by a marker, and who has told him there is one there? Which professionals has he been talking to? He needs to ignore the social workers and go directly to the financial assessment department for copies of the paperwork and details of what agreement was reached.  Did she have other assets over the 23.5K which may be being included. I believe that joint assets (house ) aside may count as 50/50 but could be wrong about that. 

    Is he getting confused and anything that showing up on the property is to do with the mortgage/any secured loans  rather than his wifes care needs? 
    A man who visited him at home (? a paralegal) explained what we now believe is this a deputyship, which he explained would cost £3-4,000 + to do, and like you say this man explained to him it would be a long complex process.

    He will now go to the land registry to clarify this 'marker' that he calls it but now we are suspecting it is a charging order, which he has been advised by downloading the title register, so that is now No. 1 in the plan, to first gain clarity on this.

    He is unsure if it has been a social worker or someone from the financial assessment department (there is a lot to take in for him, so not always easy to recall exactly who in this process he has spoken to!) 

    So No. 2 on the plan is to find out who he has been liaising with on this occasion, and request copies of the agreement reached etc. 

    With regards to other assets,,no, she had nothing at all apart from the house, no savings etc., so there would be nothing else to be included which could count as 50/50, so in a sense that makes it easier..

    No secured loans at all on house, he just has the word 'marker' floating around when all this was set up 5 years ago. maybe this word was used to try and explain it to him when all being set up, but hopefully by no 1 in plan  and going to land registery to investigate this, will clear this up.

    Thank you again for your time.
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