Buying a used EV today - beware.

Grumpy_chap

I wouldn't do PCP unless it came with an incentive.

That first TM3 was very expensive, especially in today's market.

The blue one is rather more sense.

Mrs G-C says the Volvo looks nicer.

ComicGeek

Isn't this why manufacturers have warranties specific to batteries? Mine is for 8 years, after which someone will buy it for a low price (like any other car, EV or ICE) and take the risk that it won't have a large repair bill looming imminently. I believe Tesla have the same 8 year battery warranty, as it was something I looked into when choosing my car. 

If the batteries fail, or significantly reduce to less than 70% in usable capacity in 8 years (which would still be 230 miles range!), then it gets replaced - although I believe they only replace it to the maximum 70% figure rather than the original 100% size. Although logic would suggest that this 70% figure is unlikely to be reached for a significant number of EVs, otherwise they would have set the warranty level lower still!

This is part of the reason why I was only interested in higher range EVs - I did work back against the 70% figure to see whether this could still work for me. That's what did worry about the really low range EVs, where driving in winter with an aged battery wouldn't work for me.

JKenH

ComicGeek said:

Isn't this why manufacturers have warranties specific to batteries? Mine is for 8 years, after which someone will buy it for a low price (like any other car, EV or ICE) and take the risk that it won't have a large repair bill looming imminently. I believe Tesla have the same 8 year battery warranty, as it was something I looked into when choosing my car. 

If the batteries fail, or significantly reduce to less than 70% in usable capacity in 8 years (which would still be 230 miles range!), then it gets replaced - although I believe they only replace it to the maximum 70% figure rather than the original 100% size. Although logic would suggest that this 70% figure is unlikely to be reached for a significant number of EVs, otherwise they would have set the warranty level lower still!

This is part of the reason why I was only interested in higher range EVs - I did work back against the 70% figure to see whether this could still work for me. That's what did worry about the really low range EVs, where driving in winter with an aged battery wouldn't work for me.

True. I had a look at the Tesla warranty. The only area of concern for me would be this bit (my bold) 

Despite the breadth of this warranty, damage resulting from intentional actions (including intentionally abusing or destroying your vehicle or ignoring active vehicle warnings or service notifications), 

If the vehicle is sitting on the dealer’s lot and getting near a critical level of charge and it starts pinging warnings and these are ignored by the dealer will this invalidate the warranty for any subsequent purchaser? 

ComicGeek

JKenH said:

ComicGeek said:

Isn't this why manufacturers have warranties specific to batteries? Mine is for 8 years, after which someone will buy it for a low price (like any other car, EV or ICE) and take the risk that it won't have a large repair bill looming imminently. I believe Tesla have the same 8 year battery warranty, as it was something I looked into when choosing my car. 

If the batteries fail, or significantly reduce to less than 70% in usable capacity in 8 years (which would still be 230 miles range!), then it gets replaced - although I believe they only replace it to the maximum 70% figure rather than the original 100% size. Although logic would suggest that this 70% figure is unlikely to be reached for a significant number of EVs, otherwise they would have set the warranty level lower still!

This is part of the reason why I was only interested in higher range EVs - I did work back against the 70% figure to see whether this could still work for me. That's what did worry about the really low range EVs, where driving in winter with an aged battery wouldn't work for me.

True. I had a look at the Tesla warranty. The only area of concern for me would be this bit (my bold) 

Despite the breadth of this warranty, damage resulting from intentional actions (including intentionally abusing or destroying your vehicle or ignoring active vehicle warnings or service notifications), 

If the vehicle is sitting on the dealer’s lot and getting near a critical level of charge and it starts pinging warnings and these are ignored by the dealer will this invalidate the warranty for any subsequent purchaser? 

I know plenty of people (and plenty of youtube videos) who have run their EVs down to zero, and then had to charge it where it's died. This is no different to your scenario above. I have colleagues who only use DC rapid chargers and on a daily basis, always charge to 100% etc as they don't care about the state of the battery after their 3 year lease. That would be far worse than the battery running out on the dealer's forecourt while parked.

Either way I wouldn't worry about a battery within warranty - all evidence I've seen is that they are very robust, despite some owners' best efforts to destroy them. You will always hear a few stories about dodgy cells etc.

I'm expecting battery technology to completely change again in the next 5-10 yrs, so who knows what value my 8yr old EV will have then. If it's too low, then perhaps stripping the battery to use at home might be worth doing. At 70% capacity it would still provide me with 5 days of stored electricity.  

[Deleted User]

JKenH said:

Petriix said:

!!!!!!... Teslas aren't all EVs. It's well known that Teslas run a whole bunch of ancillary systems which deplete the battery. I could leave my MG5 for several months without any issues.

If remaining unused for an extended period of time, simply turning it on for 30 minutes every few weeks will keep the 12v battery charged. The HV battery will be fine if left between 40-80% charged, otherwise there might be a tiny amount of additional degradation - likely unmeasurable but would add up over time.

The thrust of my original post was about Tesla’s which seem to lose charge far more quickly than other cars. I didn’t suggest all cars would be as bad as Tesla’s but urged caution when buying any used EV that migh5 have stood around on a dealers lot for months. 

You say “I could leave my MG5 for several months without any issues.” Do you actually know that or are you just speculating. Would you have no reservations about buying a used MG EV that has stood around for months? Would you not want to try and find out if it has been kept charged as per manufacturers recommendations?

This is the advice from MG (ok, it’s about the ZS EV but might apply to the 5 as well, I don’t know)

MG

ZS EV – The high voltage battery should have a minimum charge of 15% if the car is left to stand.

and from the MG website

How to make your car battery last longer

There are several tips that you can use to try and increase your electric car battery life:

- Charge the electric car battery between 20%-80% - The lifespan of the battery pack often depends on how much it’s charged. You can extend the life of the batteries by only charging them between 20% and 80% and trying not to let them drop below 50% too often. Going beyond these limits can increase the rate that the battery deteriorates over time.

https://www.mg.co.uk/electric-life/guide-electric-car-battery-life

i am sure you will look after your MG battery in line with the recommendations and cautions above but imagine someone trading their car in. If, the previous night, the car has enough range to get to the garage I doubt the owner would top the battery up anymore than he would top the petrol tank up. The car could arrive at the garage with 15% charge or less. It could then sit for months. No matter how good the tech is on the MGEVs there will be some loss of charge. Even if it is only of a similar order to my Nissan Leaf at 1% per month it will go down, albeit very slowly. It could get down to a critical level.

This thread isn’t about your whether your MG5 loses any measurable charge overnight, it is about EVs potentially sitting for months at very low states of charge. It won’t be all of them, it might only be a small percentage of them but if you are unlucky enough to buy one of those EVs that has sat for several months with its HV battery at a low state of charge you might be buying a load of trouble. 

I am more than happy for you to post your own experience. People may take comfort from that. I think though it would be wrong to dismiss all concerns about buying a used EV that has stood around for a few months solely on the basis of your experience keeping your car charged as per manufacturer’s recommendations. 

How is this different to fossil cars?

They might sit at the dealer for months, with all the fluids going bad, weight on the tyres, 12v battery dies, moss starts growing everywhere...

Dealers know that and take steps to prevent their inventory developing expensive problems. At least the good ones do.

Checking the change level periodically isn't hard.

Herzlos

Grumpy_chap said:

I have said before in this forum that I was concerned that the value of a used EV was really zero because there was no way to know how good the battery was and whether it had been abused by the previous owner.  I was roundly condemned at the time.

Because you use every opportunity to have a pop at EV's, usually with incorrect or misleading information.

Even this statement is nonsense. A used EV will never hit a value of zero unless it's been on fire. The batteries have shown to last better than expected, and at some point can be sold for house storage and reconditioned batteries can be fitted to the car.

An EV's value will drop once the range drops below a point where people aren't comfortable using it, and then ease off until the point it's worth more as a static battery.

It's no more of a time bomb than buying an old ICE car, though to be fair with an ICE car you can give a service, replace the belts and water pump and then be fairly confident that the engine isn't going to just explode.

Unless you buy a new factory order then you've no idea how it's been looked after up until that point. Even a new stock car could have spent 6 months in a field (less likely due to the supply chain stuff).

DrEskimo

My mother-in-laws 22kWh Renault Zoe we bought was 2-yrs old and had only 68 miles on the odometer. Think it was owned by a lease company and then due to the new 41kWh model being released, never leased it out, must have been bought by the car supermarket and then sold to us.

Given it's mileage and age it clearly had been sat unused for over a year or two.

We did a simple battery health check before we took it away that said it had 100% State of health in the battery.
 5-years later and not a single problem....

It's very easy to do a batter health check yourself with a phone and a simple OBD dongle. That or ask the dealer/garage to arrange it for you before buying.

Keep_pedalling

It is a lot easier to get a state of health report on an EV traction battery than an IC engine. 

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

True. I had a look at the Tesla warranty. The only area of concern for me would be this bit (my bold) 

Despite the breadth of this warranty, damage resulting from intentional actions (including intentionally abusing or destroying your vehicle or ignoring active vehicle warnings or service notifications), 

If the vehicle is sitting on the dealer’s lot and getting near a critical level of charge and it starts pinging warnings and these are ignored by the dealer will this invalidate the warranty for any subsequent purchaser? 

Is there a way that the prospective purchaser can establish whether there have been active warnings or notifications that have been ignored?

DrEskimo

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

True. I had a look at the Tesla warranty. The only area of concern for me would be this bit (my bold) 

Despite the breadth of this warranty, damage resulting from intentional actions (including intentionally abusing or destroying your vehicle or ignoring active vehicle warnings or service notifications), 

If the vehicle is sitting on the dealer’s lot and getting near a critical level of charge and it starts pinging warnings and these are ignored by the dealer will this invalidate the warranty for any subsequent purchaser? 

Is there a way that the prospective purchaser can establish whether there have been active warnings or notifications that have been ignored?

The warnings themselves don’t mean much. It’s whether ignoring those warnings have led to damage to the battery and it’s overall health. 

As mentioned. Incredibly easy to check the battery health before you buy.