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Parking Charge Notice - Queen Elizabeth Hospital - Jan 2023 - Grace Periods?
Jayd30
Posts: 40 Forumite
Hi,
I have been reading a few threads in relation to Wise Parking who operate the car parks at Queen Elizabeth Hospital and Lewisham by all accounts. Whilst my case is no different from others I do have a few questions (mainly due to the way in which I have responded to this company and the appeal process).
Our PCN came through via the post dated 26/01 and related to a "Parking event" as they call it on the 24/01/2023 when my wife was visiting her father in hospital. The PCN was issued as they say that the tariff paid does not cover the parking period.
The evidence they supplied (from their ANPR) shows that my wife entered the car park at 13:52 and left the site at 15:08. I appealed the PCN (and sadly disclosed my wife was the driver
) on the grounds that: (Appeal sent on 02/02/2023).
1. Their ANPR shows that my wife entered at 13:52pm.
2. The PayByPhone record shows that my wife paid for 1hr parking at 14:08 - it took 15 minutes approximately to find a space get parked and make a payment, so gives them an indication of how busy the car park was.
3. Their ANPR shows that my wife left the car park at 15:10:43 and based on the fact that it took 15 minutes to find a space when entering the car park, surely there must be some leeway for drivers exiting. Keeping in mind that we are talking a matter of not more than 3 minutes when her parking period had expired.
Needless to say that on 03/03/2023 I received a response from Wise Parking which advised they had reviewed the case and my comments and said that the charge stood on the grounds that:
"All signage on site states you should Pay on Exit at one of the machines on site, or pay on entry using PayByPhone - the details are on each sign. It is important for us to ensure that Parking Charge notices are only issued when they should be. As part of our quality checks we look to see if there are payments which have been made that can be allocated to vehicles where the registration may entered incorrectly. As the terms of parking say you should enter your full, correct vehicle registration number, we have checked your registration number against our records. As we know simple errors can happen we checked for record matching the beginning of your registration, the middle, and the end all separately to see if we can identify a payment which has been made which is likely yours. There are none."
I tried to call as when I made the appeal I had included a clear screenshot of the PayByPhone app which clearly showed on the 24/01 my wife had made a payment at 14:08 for 1 hour. I tried calling to discuss, but this organisation will not speak to you over the phone. I sent an email to the info@ email for wise parking again trying to argue the case that what they had stated in the appeal response was incorrect and that my wife had paid to park and informed them that I had included a screenshot of the phone app showing payment.
Their response via email - not in a letter format: (So they could find a payment and now differently worded).
I responded again and all I got was a messaged back sating the appeals process is now concluded So not wanting to just roll over and pay this bogus PCN, I decided to do some digging. I started looking into the IPC and their code of practice (wish I had come to this forum first
) I found section 13 to be of particular interest as it states:
13 Consideration and Grace Periods on Private Land
13.1 Motorists must be allowed a sufficient Consideration Period so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to enter or remain on the Private Land. If a Motorist chooses to reject the opportunity by entering or remaining on the Private Land without reading terms and conditions, they may be deemed to have accepted them immediately.
13.2 Before a Parking Charge is issued Motorists must be allowed a Grace Period save and except when 13.3 is applicable. A Grace Period is a 10 minute period at the end of a Permitted Period of Parking.
13.3 A Grace Period is not required when the Permitted Period of Parking does not exceed 1 hour providing that the signage on the site makes it clear to the Motorist, in a prominent font, that no Grace Period applies on that land.
I have now written a lengthy email of complaint to Wise Parking outlining the above. If my understanding is correct under section 13.2 a PCN should receive a grace period, I appreciate that 13.3 sates that a grace period is not required when the period of parking does not exceed 1 hour, providing that the signage on the site makes it clear to the motorist in a prominent font, that no grace period applies on that land. With that in mind I returned to the car park yesterday evening and took pictures of every sign on the site and the T&Cs of parking which clearly show they are from Wise Parking - have no reference to any grace period (see attached).
Keeping in mind that this code of practice clearly has a section with regards to grace periods and signage, I feel that we have good grounds for this PCN to be cancelled?
My questions for the forum are:
1. Have I done the wrong thing by appealing first before complaining?
2. Have I done the wrong thing by providing info to Wise Parking that my wife was the driver of the vehicle on the day in question?
3. Are these private parking operators bound by this code of practice? Or is this just some mickey mouse "code" which they will state are just "guidelines" and do not have to follow?
*The code clearly states.
Members of The IPC who issue parking charges within the private parking sector are required to subscribe to the IPC’s Accredited Operator Scheme (AOS) and adhere to this Code of Practice which defines the core standards necessary to ensure transparency and fairness.
.
4. Would you concur with my assessment with regards to grace periods and that in these circumstances the PCN has not been validly issued?
5. What are my next steps in terms of trying to get this PCN cancelled (if I have any).
Apologies in advance for the long post but had to explain the circumstances.
Thanks in advance if you read this and have any input!!
I have been reading a few threads in relation to Wise Parking who operate the car parks at Queen Elizabeth Hospital and Lewisham by all accounts. Whilst my case is no different from others I do have a few questions (mainly due to the way in which I have responded to this company and the appeal process).
Our PCN came through via the post dated 26/01 and related to a "Parking event" as they call it on the 24/01/2023 when my wife was visiting her father in hospital. The PCN was issued as they say that the tariff paid does not cover the parking period.
The evidence they supplied (from their ANPR) shows that my wife entered the car park at 13:52 and left the site at 15:08. I appealed the PCN (and sadly disclosed my wife was the driver
) on the grounds that: (Appeal sent on 02/02/2023).1. Their ANPR shows that my wife entered at 13:52pm.
2. The PayByPhone record shows that my wife paid for 1hr parking at 14:08 - it took 15 minutes approximately to find a space get parked and make a payment, so gives them an indication of how busy the car park was.
3. Their ANPR shows that my wife left the car park at 15:10:43 and based on the fact that it took 15 minutes to find a space when entering the car park, surely there must be some leeway for drivers exiting. Keeping in mind that we are talking a matter of not more than 3 minutes when her parking period had expired.
Needless to say that on 03/03/2023 I received a response from Wise Parking which advised they had reviewed the case and my comments and said that the charge stood on the grounds that:
"All signage on site states you should Pay on Exit at one of the machines on site, or pay on entry using PayByPhone - the details are on each sign. It is important for us to ensure that Parking Charge notices are only issued when they should be. As part of our quality checks we look to see if there are payments which have been made that can be allocated to vehicles where the registration may entered incorrectly. As the terms of parking say you should enter your full, correct vehicle registration number, we have checked your registration number against our records. As we know simple errors can happen we checked for record matching the beginning of your registration, the middle, and the end all separately to see if we can identify a payment which has been made which is likely yours. There are none."
I tried to call as when I made the appeal I had included a clear screenshot of the PayByPhone app which clearly showed on the 24/01 my wife had made a payment at 14:08 for 1 hour. I tried calling to discuss, but this organisation will not speak to you over the phone. I sent an email to the info@ email for wise parking again trying to argue the case that what they had stated in the appeal response was incorrect and that my wife had paid to park and informed them that I had included a screenshot of the phone app showing payment.
Their response via email - not in a letter format: (So they could find a payment and now differently worded).
Good morning,
We have investigated the below and we can see that payment was made for 1 hour. After checking for possible incorrect entries, we can see that no further payments were made, therefore the parking charge notice was correctly issued. The £40 discounted rate is available for another 14 days from the date of the appeal decline. The internal appeals process has now concluded. The appeal decline letter will have the information to appeal to the IAS if you wish to do so,
Kind regards
Appeals & Legal Department
I responded again and all I got was a messaged back sating the appeals process is now concluded So not wanting to just roll over and pay this bogus PCN, I decided to do some digging. I started looking into the IPC and their code of practice (wish I had come to this forum first
) I found section 13 to be of particular interest as it states: 13 Consideration and Grace Periods on Private Land
13.1 Motorists must be allowed a sufficient Consideration Period so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to enter or remain on the Private Land. If a Motorist chooses to reject the opportunity by entering or remaining on the Private Land without reading terms and conditions, they may be deemed to have accepted them immediately.
13.2 Before a Parking Charge is issued Motorists must be allowed a Grace Period save and except when 13.3 is applicable. A Grace Period is a 10 minute period at the end of a Permitted Period of Parking.
13.3 A Grace Period is not required when the Permitted Period of Parking does not exceed 1 hour providing that the signage on the site makes it clear to the Motorist, in a prominent font, that no Grace Period applies on that land.
I have now written a lengthy email of complaint to Wise Parking outlining the above. If my understanding is correct under section 13.2 a PCN should receive a grace period, I appreciate that 13.3 sates that a grace period is not required when the period of parking does not exceed 1 hour, providing that the signage on the site makes it clear to the motorist in a prominent font, that no grace period applies on that land. With that in mind I returned to the car park yesterday evening and took pictures of every sign on the site and the T&Cs of parking which clearly show they are from Wise Parking - have no reference to any grace period (see attached).
Keeping in mind that this code of practice clearly has a section with regards to grace periods and signage, I feel that we have good grounds for this PCN to be cancelled?
My questions for the forum are:
1. Have I done the wrong thing by appealing first before complaining?
2. Have I done the wrong thing by providing info to Wise Parking that my wife was the driver of the vehicle on the day in question?
3. Are these private parking operators bound by this code of practice? Or is this just some mickey mouse "code" which they will state are just "guidelines" and do not have to follow?
*The code clearly states.
Members of The IPC who issue parking charges within the private parking sector are required to subscribe to the IPC’s Accredited Operator Scheme (AOS) and adhere to this Code of Practice which defines the core standards necessary to ensure transparency and fairness.
.
4. Would you concur with my assessment with regards to grace periods and that in these circumstances the PCN has not been validly issued?
5. What are my next steps in terms of trying to get this PCN cancelled (if I have any).
Apologies in advance for the long post but had to explain the circumstances.
Thanks in advance if you read this and have any input!!
0
Comments
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Your best bet is to post this in the Parking Sub-forum, https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/categories/parking-tickets-fines-parking
were you will receive sound advice, not least of which will be to read the NEWBIE sticky https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822/newbies-private-parking-ticket-old-or-new-read-these-faqs-first-thankyou/p1
Was it a PPC or a Council PCN. If council, go here instead: -If council you would be better off taking this over to our friends on Pepipoo.com as they are the experts on council and police issues.You will need to sign up on Pepipoo with a non-Hotmail email address before reading the FAQs, then posting both sides of your PCN with your query.PrivateCouncilPolice1 -
Have you contacted PALS at the hospital? They can stop all this.
Post on here for help...https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/categories/parking-tickets-fines-parking
Read this...https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822/newbies-private-parking-ticket-old-or-new-read-these-faqs-first-thankyou#latest1 -
Thanks both will post to the correct section.
I was a PPC from a private company called Wise Parking.
I have ccd PALS into my complaint email.
Cheers for the help thus far.0 -
NHS trusts make a lot of money from parking charges. My local hospital in Kent makes over £3 million per year. More than 8 hours is £15 so £8 for 24 hrs doesn't seem too bad. At a hospital in Surrey, the car parking charges for the public subsidises free buses for staff between hospital sites and also the local Tesco superstore. Staff have to pay these charges too and a family member pays £40 pw out of net income. The company working for the Trust will battle long and hard and basically, their car park = their rules. Sometimes, an enterprising person will set up a car park nearby. There's one near The Conquest Hospital in Hastings.0
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The best way to avoid hospital parking charges is to cycle there. If you can't cycle all the way, pop a folding bike in the back of your car. Job done.-1
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Ibrahim5 said:The best way to avoid hospital parking charges is to cycle there. If you can't cycle all the way, pop a folding bike in the back of your car. Job done.If I had to pick the worst possible demographic for people to cycle, it'd be hospital visitors. I'm very pro cycling but seriously, you expect ill and injured people to cycle to avoid predatory parking scammers?OP - The parking company is a scam and the IAS are completely bent, but you shouldn't have any problem beating it should it ever get to court. There's a 10 minute grace period at the end of parking, as well as precedent that looking for a parking space isn't parking, and they can't prove that the car was actually parked for more than the hour paid for.3
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Are hospital visitors particularly likely to be ill or injured? I suppose they might be older than average.Herzlos said:Ibrahim5 said:The best way to avoid hospital parking charges is to cycle there. If you can't cycle all the way, pop a folding bike in the back of your car. Job done.If I had to pick the worst possible demographic for people to cycle, it'd be hospital visitors. I'm very pro cycling but seriously, you expect ill and injured people to cycle to avoid predatory parking scammers?0 -
Ibrahim5 said:The best way to avoid hospital parking charges is to cycle there. If you can't cycle all the way, pop a folding bike in the back of your car. Job done.Better to walk but then Not al Disabilities are Visible. - I suppose that you can argue for and against hospital parking charges. I do know at one point it was cheaper to pay for parking at nthe hospital than in town (Huddersfield) for the day amd a lot of people used the hospital car park for that reason.My personal view is that anyone attending for a consultation or treatment should be Free. If there are to be charges then the hospital should not be allowed to hand its management over to a thrird party - that just adds to the cost as these companies are in business to make money.0
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I would suggest that a large proportion of people visiting a hospital do so as a patient and therefore cycling there might not be the easiest option.user1977 said:
Are hospital visitors particularly likely to be ill or injured? I suppose they might be older than average.Herzlos said:Ibrahim5 said:The best way to avoid hospital parking charges is to cycle there. If you can't cycle all the way, pop a folding bike in the back of your car. Job done.If I had to pick the worst possible demographic for people to cycle, it'd be hospital visitors. I'm very pro cycling but seriously, you expect ill and injured people to cycle to avoid predatory parking scammers?2 -
This thread is nothing to do with the fee to park. The charge being discussed DOES NOT go to the hospital. The thread is about fighting the £80 "outrageous scam" - one of many phrases that MPs stated sums up parking firms.MrsStepford said:NHS trusts make a lot of money from parking charges. My local hospital in Kent makes over £3 million per year. More than 8 hours is £15 so £8 for 24 hrs doesn't seem too bad.
The driver paid the correct fee to park for an hour and is not objecting to paying to park. He has another thread here on the right board. this poster is now getting the right advice.
Astonishing that cycling to hospital is also being suggested, whether for patients or visitors.
Most patients can't, and most visitors to see people in hospital are elderly or families. It is not possible in most cases to cycle - it really isn't that simple for the majority of the population - and as @Herzlos rightly says:
"I'm very pro cycling but seriously, you expect ill and injured people to cycle to avoid predatory parking scammers?"PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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