Bank will not give us our money

BrianandMargy

Hi , we have been RBS account holders since 1977 but as there are no branches we had to go to Natwest . We are in our 70's and were buying a classic sportscar we had viewed it in December and paid a £1000 deposit and we would complete the purchase in January . Last Tuesday we were unable to send the seller , (Removed by Forum Team) , the £22500 by internet banking as the limit on my wifes phone was £5000 , so we went to the nearest Natwest to seek assistance . The lady (Removed by Forum Team) on the customer service desk was also unable to raise the limit so we asked her to transfer the money from our account to the sellers we had our passports etc so all was ok , until , she asked if we thought we might be being scammed and asked questions about (Removed by Forum Team) , his house , the car etc . We thanked her for her concern but said we had no concerns and were happy to proceed she then said she could not proceed but a manager would have to ok it . The manager (Removed by Forum Team) asked us all the same questions and we gave the same replies and she said she would not do the transfer as she had a duty of care and thought we could be being scammed . We again told her we were not and wished to buy the car and asked her to carry on with the transfer , she refused . We then said we would like to arrange to withdraw from our account £22500 in cash when it was available in a few days , she again refused this request saying she thought we meant to take the money and try and buy the car . We were in a state of shock , i had to sit down as my heart was pounding after a few minutes i again requested her to either do the transfer or arrange the cash withdrawl , she refused to do either . I then stated that she was being Ageist against us because we were old she was assuming we were not capable of running our affairs and were too old to make decisions for ourselves , this made no change she still refused and we had to leave the bank we had been there for 90 minutes . From here on it gets worse but I just want thoughts on the above .

Undervalued

I think you would be better posting this in the banking section of the forum, as the regulars that post there are more likely to know the banking rules and policies.

I am sure there are policies / rules regarding suspicious transactions that you will have agreed to in the pages of small print when you opened the account. However, I understand it is very frustrating if they hold up a genuine transaction.

To some extent it must be profiled as there will be some customers who need this sort of transaction very regularly whereas others (like yourself??) where it is a total one off.

DullGreyGuy

This is the problem... you get headlines everywhere about how bad banks are about protecting people from scams, the ombudsman starts to increasingly rule that banks should refund scam victims out of their own pocket because they bank should have refused the transaction.

Natural result is banks start getting stricter with transactions but then others start complaining they cannot do what they want with their own money. 

Is there any solution that keeps both groups happy?


Presumably the £5k limit was because it was a new payee, I know some banks differentiate between established payees and new ones. You presumably also have your own bank account  and already have the facilities to transfer monies between yourselves.

Rather than waste 90 minutes in the bank (plus travel time) and you are sure its not a scam, just transfer £5k each (£10k total) per day for 3 days to hit the £22,500? A reasonable seller will understand that banks put limits on new payee instructions and its not like you are asking them to accept £10 a week for the next 40 years

eskbanker

BrianandMargy said:

I then stated that she was being Ageist against us because we were old she was assuming we were not capable of running our affairs and were too old to make decisions for ourselves , this made no change she still refused and we had to leave the bank we had been there for 90 minutes . From here on it gets worse but I just want thoughts on the above .

What makes you think that you'd have been treated differently if you were younger?

cymruchris

On one hand I can understand their concern as there are a considerable number of scams that target your age group, and in a sense I can also understand that they were trying to protect you, although from your post above, it would seem that you are of sound mind and know what you're doing. You've seen the car in person which tends to indicate it's a genuine sale, although even then some people can still be scammed after seeing what they want to buy. It's a difficult balance, but it seems they may have been a little over cautious on this occasion. I can also see how it's made you quite worked up - and understandably so. I'm sure there will be a solution, and although it should be much easier once known to be a genuine purchase, I know there are quite a few hurdles to get over to access your own money where a scam is suspected.

Out of interest - is John and the car local to you? A private seller? Or a dealer? Have you done a HPI check on it to make sure it's all ok in terms of engine/chassis number matching up and a stolen vehicle report? (It may be that they've owned it for 20 years, have a stack of history, and are selling it for a very genuine reason - but you still can't be too careful when parting with that kind of money).

Do you have current accounts at other banks in your names? If you're absolutely sure you're happy with the deal - you could transfer your balance over to a different account and take the money out over the counter from another branch.

Just to put the boot on the other foot somewhat - (and I'm sure that you're sure that it's all good) - but hypothetically if it turned out to be a scam - would you accept that for what it was, or would you be banging on the door of the bank asking for your money back?

I say that just to lend balance to why they're potentially being very cautious with your money - as they don't want it to cost them money if it did turn out to be a scam.

lr1277

In this case where you are certain you are not being scammed, I wonder if a cheque would have been a better way forward?

From the bank's point of view, it is a piece of paper instructing them to make a payment, with the seller's name and most importantly your signature. I have not seen on these boards any posts about chequest being stopped by banks. Just because I don't know about it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Yes it might have been troublesome for the seller. You would have had to wait for the seller's bank to clear the cheque. And I note the delay between the initial deposit and the final payment. In that time you could have posted the cheque (assuming you trust Royal Mail at the moment), waited for the cheque to clear then go and pickup the car.

Also if you had to post a cheque you would have the address of the seller and it should match the place you visited to view the car.

And if it was a scam, the bank would have a piece of paper asking them to make the transfer with the account holder(s) signature(s).

Just a thought.

x_raphael_xx

My ex once shouted at the poor girl on the end of the bank helpline as our account had been auto suspended. We had bought a lot of high cost items in the same day (Holiday, flights & flagstones for the builder renovating the drive) and it had auto flagged the account.
Once the operator had performed the security checks and released the account (took all of 10 mins) she was still angry and I had to ask her how would she have felt if it wasn't our transactions and the bank had continued to allow a scammer to make large purchases until the account was drained.

These security procedures are put in place to protect people and their money. Scammers are getting smarter so stronger procedures have to be put in place.

There was a news article recently where a bank performed the 'are you sure its not a scammer' checks at the desk and the account holder lied about the reason for the withdraw as they didn't want the hassle. Turns out it was a scam.

They were just trying to ensure you didn't lose your life savings.

Band7

x_raphael_xx said:

 

They were just trying to ensure you didn't lose your life savings.

No, they are just trying to limit the liability of the bank, who would have to refund the money if the couple turned up later to say they have been scammed. Sounds ridiculous but this is now the case.

By the sounds of it, the OP has not been able to convince the bank that it wasn't a scam. Whether this was the OP's 'fault', or pigheadedness by the bank, we can't tell as we have only got the account from the OP. 

If I were the OP and absolutely certain that I want(ed) to buy this car, I would 

1. raise a formal, written, complaint with Natwest
2. contact my MP to ask for help
3. contact my local paper to ask whether they'd be interested to run this story in the paper

sheramber

I bank with RBS.

The £  daily limit of withdrawals is set by the account holder. It covers all accounts and all outgoings , so will include such things as DDs and standing orders, debit card payments etc.

I had a similar experience when trying to pay a contractor for installing a dropped kerb and driveway.  It took 45 minutes to convince the bank that I was not being scammed.

How did you find the company?  Local, well known company who have done work in my street.

Have they done the work?  Yes

Are you happy with the work? Delighted

You transferred the sum of money from your savings account to your current account. Yes ( I do not keep that sum of money in my current account.)

You raised your daily limit? Yes, to allow me to pay this invoice.

Have checked the account details are correct? Apart from COP the man personally handed me the invoice at the door when the work was finished and the other team members were clearing up.

Every  few minutes she interjected with ' we are just having an open and frank discussion'.

The contractor laughed when I told him but did say he was glad the bank were taking care to protect customers.

flaneurs_lobster

Would it not be possible to get the buyer, seller, ownership documents and even the car all together at one bank branch?

Shouldn't be necessary but my sympathy's with the bank, no doubt the advice to the couple if they had been scammed would be exactly the same as @Band7 has stated above

1. raise a formal, written, complaint with Natwest
2. contact my MP to ask for help
3. contact my local paper to ask whether they'd be interested to run this story in the paper

Rob5342

Have you tried getting a Starling account? They only take 10 minutes to open and tend to be much more practical about things that the old fashioned banks.