MIL with dementia and no LPA

Gladyshen

Dear fellow forumites,

I need some urgent help with a complex family situation please.  Aplogies for the lengthy scene-setting.....

My FIL was admitted to hospital at the start of January and died nearly a month later.  He and his wife have been living in a dirty, hoarded house (with approx £50k mortgage left to pay) for many years, refusing all offers of help to clear it.  He clearly had capacity to refuse help (we offered numerous times) but his wife was diagnosed with dementia a couple of years ago.   They have been muddling along together in the meantime.   Her cognitive ability fluctuates day to day and although she is perfectly physically capable of self-care tasks has to be prompted.

We have managed to get my MIL into a respite placement but as there is no LPA in place we are struggling to get the finances in order and even to access funds to pay for my FIL's funeral,  which none of us can afford. He was paying into a direct cremation plan, which still appears to be functional but with around £2k owing.

They had a joint bank account which, after my sister-in-law (SIL) took in her father's death certificate, is now in my MIL's sole name.  My MIL has a debit card but doesn't know the PIN.  My SIL also told them that her mother has dementia and no LPA and they have said the only way for us to help her with money is to apply via the court of protection.   I have since phoned the bank to discuss things hypothetically and been told that we can take her in to a branch to get a new PIN for her card.  On one of her good days she would probably cope with this but on a bad day would just say 'I don't know' to any question posed before turning to one of us to provide an answer.

I must point out that there is no disagreement whatsoever about what needs to be done - clear the house, sell it and use the proceeds to pay off the mortgage, and other creditors we come across, then use the rest to pay for MIL's care.  We are under no illusions that there will be an inheritance of any sort except possibly some sort of nasty respiratory infection from sorting through heaps of detritus to find paperwork.......

My worry is that if we take MIL to the bank and it's one of her bad days they will refuse a PIN and we could end up in an even more difficult situation.

The most pressing problem is accessing funds to pay for my FIL's funeral, as he is currently still in the hospital mortuary and we have no idea how quickly the cremation company will sort things.  I should also point out that they are in administration and from my research so far not FCA registered. My MIL also has a policy with them, but that's a question for another post.......!

I know an LPA is our best option but her GP has so far declined to do a capacity assessment (I can't blame them, it's a horribly complicated mess!) but don't know how to source one otherwise.  My MIL's social worker is pleasant but inexperienced and having heard how she words questions to my MIL (uses jargon etc) I don't feel she is the correct person to do it.  I know solicitors can do it, but I would doubt they would in cases of dementia, and their fees would also be a problem.

We are going to phone round some dementia charities/CAB etc today for advice but I wonder if anyone can offer advice on 

1. How to access funds for my FIL's funeral from the bank account that until 3 days ago was in his joint name

2. Sourcing an LPA capacity assessment for my MIL

3. How we can keep MIL in care while the house etc is dealt with (this could take months)

Huge thanks in advance

GrannyKate

Just a few thoughts:
Do speak to Age UK or something similar. They have seen these scenarios before and will give good advice.
Speak to your preferred funeral director and the administrators for the funeral plan - there may be some support in place within the funeral industry
The first charge on any estate is the funeral and the bank should be willing to pay a funeral director directly - I sent the bill for my mother's funeral to bank and they paid it.
At some stage you will need to apply to Court of Protection for someone to be appointed a deputy in order to sell the property and manage financial affairs.
Capacity assessments are done under the Mental Health Act and are time and topic specific ie MIL may have the capacity to make certain decisions  like whether she wants to take pills or have liquid medicine, what colour to paint rooms etc but may not have capacity to make the bigger decisions like where she will live or managing money.  Thus you don't decide someone totally lacks capacity unless they are comatose and even then their previous expressed wishes should be considered.  A GP may feel that it is his place to do assessments on medical treatments but the broader picture needs to be considered by family and social care services.  The care home where she is now should be able to do an assessment as they will have gained a fairly good understanding of her needs and abilities.  Her social worker should be looking at this and deciding whether she is able to go home or not.  The family can be part of and contribute to the assessment.  How are the fees being paid at the moment?  The local authority will put a charge on the house for money owed which will need to be repaid when the property is sold which may be sometime down the line.  I assume social worker got the respite placement.  They will need to assess her capacity before moving her elsewhere.  

bobster2

If your MIL no longer has capacity to create an LPA you could apply for deputyship. Guidance here...

https://www.nationwide.co.uk/help/third-party-access/guide-to-court-of-protection-orders/

You say she's in respite placement? Is this through the Local Authority? They will have a lot a experience in applying deputyships - and may even know how to expedite the process. But if you don't plan for her to receive LA care you might want to do it without involving them.

Mands

If MIL doesn't have capacity then you will have to go down the Court of Protection route.

When we did this for my late parents-in-law we were told it would take 6 months to put in place and cost around £2k for each of them. Both of those numbers were slightly high, but not by much. Knowing in advance was a help as it allowed us to anticipate when the deputyship would be in place plus geared us up for a marathon rather than a sprint.

The bank may agree to pay the funeral directors directly. I would have a conversation with their bereavement team as soon as possible so you know if the funeral costs are covered.

Once that is done, and assuming no LPA and a half year to get through the court of protection, the local authority can temporarily fund MIL's respite fees. Once you have the deputyship in place and can sell the house you would repay their fees from the house sale proceeds. A discussion with her social worker would be the start point for that.

Best of luck with everything, you have a lot to deal with. Condolences and best wishes.
Mands

Keep_pedalling

Have you been speaking to the Bank’s bereavement team? If not I would do so they may agree to pay the funeral director directly as they would do if funds were held up through probate. 

You may be able To get a Funeral Expenses Payment to help with the funeral costs, call the Bereavement Service helpline  on 0800 1512912.

I would not worry to much about paying for care costs they can be deferred until you have obtained deputyship and are in a position to to access her funds and sell the house.

Difficult with hoarders, but see if you can find any paperwork that relates to any sole savings accounts or insurance policies he may have had. If you have copies of their current account statements that point to regular payments to insurance companies. 

it sounds like it is far too late to apply for LPAs so you will have to apply for deputyship to get control of her financial affairs. If you don’t or aren’t able to do this the LA will do so but it is better for you to be in control. 

Good luck.

poppystar

Definitely contact AgeUK. They have loads of printed/online help available to cover various issues regarding care but more importantly they have great people answering the phones who will point you in the right direction and understand how everything works. They should be able to help you form a plan of action. Good luck. 

Gladyshen

Dear Granny Kate, bobster2, Mands and Keep_peddling,

Thank you.  When I was lying awake in the wee small hours wondering what on earth we can do and decided on trying the MSE forum I didn't expect to have help so quickly!

It was the bereavement team I spoke to (Nationwide BS) who were sympathetic but said that the reason we couldn't access funds for my FIL's funeral was that it had been a joint account. It seems rather inhumane that we can't (so far at least) access what was at least half his until 3 days ago to put him to rest, so I'll try asking about sending them the bill directly.  I doubt the cremation company will be able to help - it's One Life, whose website contains a statement that they don't have the funds to pay for all the fully-paid funerals on their books.

We've also had to have a vet home visit to euthanize their huge ancient seriously unwell and incontinent dog ( he was to weak to get himself into a car and in too much pain to be lifted, poor thing) so perhaps the bank can help with that too.....

MIL went into respite before FIL died so it was set up while somebody with capacity and ownership of the account was alive.

With regard to capacity for an LPA I do have a tiny hope that MIL might be ok - I understand about capacity being decison-specific, but it also needs the right approach by someone who knows what they are doing, with the assumption at the outset that she has capacity.  I feel it's worth a shot (FIL asked us in his last few days to put it in place for both of them, not understanding to timescales) and hoped for some suggestions about maybe a specialist firm who might be able to help.  I know I said cost was an issue but I also know that going down the deputyship route will be much more expensive.  An LPA would answer everything! 

I'm also going to speak with MIL's social worker about possibly starting the deputyship process.

Thanks once again everyone!

Keep_pedalling

You said she does not have any physical health problems, so presumably she is capable of signing a cheque to cover funeral costs. 

Gladyshen

Keep_pedalling said:

You said she does not have any physical health problems, so presumably she is capable of signing a cheque to cover funeral costs. 

Thanks again Keep_peddling.  She could certainly manage it physically, but if she doesn't have capacity to handle her finances then couldn't that be construed as fraudulent/coercion?  This is why I was worried about trying to take her into the bank to get a new PIN.  I'm not sure I could handle someone alleging that we are trying to diddle her for money on top of what we're handling a the moment!  

Thanks also poppystar - AgeUK are proving to be absolutely amazing!

poppystar

I wouldn’t worry too much about being accused of fraud although I totally understand why you would! I’d say go ahead (with cheques rather than PIN) and keep clear records of it all. At the moment what you are suggesting using the money for is a very valid use of her money especially if you can’t get a bank to pay a funeral bill. Are you on good terms with all beneficiaries to her Will or those who will be beneficiaries under intestacy if she doesn’t have one? If so I’d again keep a record but get all to sign that they agree as part of that record. Record keeping will be good practice if you are applying for deputyship - a friend has it and it’s a nightmare in terms of jumping the hoops each year to report what they have been doing! It’s not a perfect solution and only my opinion but you seem to be between devil and a hard place at the moment.

Pleased AgeUK came up trumps. They were so helpful to me that they are now in my Will - paying it forward. 

Gladyshen

Sadly she currently doesn't have a will either, or rather both FIL and MIL had beautiful ones on parchment drawn up which they then stashed in a safe (with £5.50 in loose change for some reason)......unsigned.

The beneficiaries for my MIL from what I can see would be my partner and his sister and then probably her 3 grandsons from her other daughter who died last year, though both MIL and FIL said they only wanted one of the boys to inherit due to poor relationships with the others.  But of course this was never formalised anywhere.

I must say, if it comes to deputyship I am inclined to let the LA do it!  We've managed to find a few photos, but beyond that anything we do is simply helping to pay debts to companies who should never have loaned my FIL money in the first place!