Builders dispute

diginoo

we brought a new build townhouse 8 years ago and after 2/3 years the we started to get a serious leak running down on the inside of our windows of our property during and after periods of rain. obviously we contacted our house builder who first dismissed any issues and then said it could be rendering etc. After a period of discussions back of forth I was convinced there was more to this leak and contacted the window manufacturer and paid for an Independent investigation and report and low and behold they confirmed my suspicions that the two windows in question have been incorrectly fitted by the builder!

Basically the window sill has been incorrectly bolted on to front of window and not under window where it should sit so consequently the water that should drain down the window and out now falls into the internal cavity between our walls and leaks out through the top of the window in the lower room.

We have spent the last 18 months/2 years disputing this with NHBC and Ombudsman and even appealed but the policy is so loosely worded that only the widow pane is covered and not the main structural window frame which is just bonkers? we appealed the Ombudsman and this was turned down too.

I truly believe that out of 15 properties on our estate for some bizarre reason we are the only one with this issue with these 2 windows / 5 other windows on our property are all correctly fitted. I can only assume we were either the first property to be built and they didn't know how to correctly fit them or the last one to be built and builder run out of time to complete properly and rushed it to sign off the the job?

We now wish to take this further through a small claims court but unsure about much we should be asking for? should I get an Independent window fitter quote for quote to replace these two windows? we are already £800 down with cost of scaffolding and independent investigation not to mention the lost days spent waiting for the builders to investigate in the early days etc. any advice about small claims proceedings would be grateful.

Doozergirl

Um, if it isn't covered by NHBC and the builder has no liability beyond year 2 then you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.  NHBC is what takes you to 10 years and that is for serious structural issues and even then they'll try to wriggle out of it.  

It's likely to get thrown out of court if you attempt to take NHBC to task on something that isn't covered by their policy.  You have a clearly worded warranty which you say doesn't cover the window fitting.  

Are the windows the wrong size? 

macman

If you have lost your claim with NHBC and now outside the 10 year warranty then you are looking at a civil action against the developer or builder-whoever you purchased from.
Are they still trading? The value of your claim will be your quantifiable losses, i.e. the cost of rectifying the defects and any reasonable expenses. What else were you hoping to claim for?

diginoo

Doozergirl said:

Um, if it isn't covered by NHBC and the builder has no liability beyond year 2 then you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.  NHBC is what takes you to 10 years and that is for serious structural issues and even then they'll try to wriggle out of it.  

It's likely to get thrown out of court if you attempt to take NHBC to task on something that isn't covered by their policy.  You have a clearly worded warranty which you say doesn't cover the window fitting.  

Are the windows the wrong size? 

All avenues have been taken regarding NHBC, I am now thinking about taking the house builder to small claim court.

Two of the windows have not been fitted to the guidelines by the window manufacture (fitted incorrectly) so the design aspect of the window is that any rain that seeps within the framework should naturally fall down the inbuilt channels and out onto the window sill and away from the house in theory.

However in my case two of the windows have nothing under them as the sill has been fitted\screwed to the front of the window frame.

I have written evidence from the window engineer along with correct engineering diagrams etc plus even the Ombudsman doesn't dispute that the windows have been fitted wrongly but they are not covered under NHBC.

one would assume that when buying a house that it should be watertight to the basic degree for 20/25 years +

diginoo

macman said:

If you have lost your claim with NHBC and now outside the 10 year warranty then you are looking at a civil action against the developer or builder-whoever you purchased from.
Are they still trading? The value of your claim will be your quantifiable losses, i.e. the cost of rectifying the defects and any reasonable expenses. What else were you hoping to claim for?

NHBC is still within the 10 years but unfortunately due to poorly worded policy they have decided it doesn't come under their cover.
Builders are still trading yes. 
Quantifiable losses? that's where I am stuck? because I don't know how much it would be to fit two new windows (floor to ceiling 2 pane top push out) plus cost surrounding scaffolding etc as top window in question is three stories high. (i.e. ground, first and second)
Small claims comes under fees cost for £205 for claims £3,000.01-£5,000 or £455 for claims £5,000.01 - £10.000

macman

I repeat: what is the cost of the remedial work required? That will determine whether it is worth pursuing via the small claims process, assuming less than £10k.

diystarter7

macman said:

I repeat: what is the cost of the remedial work required? That will determine whether it is worth pursuing via the small claims process, assuming less than £10k.

As i read down the posts I was thinking on the same lines.

With all of this water, the longer it is delayed, more damage/upset/etc. Personally, after all this I'd get it fixed to remove the stress etc

Thanks

MikeJXE

Basically the window sill has been incorrectly bolted on to front of window and not under window where it should sit so consequently the water that should drain down the window and out now falls into the internal cavity between our walls and leaks out through the top of the window in the lower room. 

So are you saying the hole to fit the window was too small or the window too big ?

Sometimes builders have a template from the window contractor and leave a space in the construction in which the window fits

In other instances the builder leave a space for the widow and the window manufacturer measures up each individually 

If as you say the cill is fixed on the front instead of under,  the hole wasn't big enough and a new window would need to be made. 

A more cost effective way might be to remove the brickwork below, fit the cill under the widow and install a brick or stone cill underneath or even forget the widow cill and use a stone one 

Doozergirl

diginoo said:

Doozergirl said:

Um, if it isn't covered by NHBC and the builder has no liability beyond year 2 then you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.  NHBC is what takes you to 10 years and that is for serious structural issues and even then they'll try to wriggle out of it.  

It's likely to get thrown out of court if you attempt to take NHBC to task on something that isn't covered by their policy.  You have a clearly worded warranty which you say doesn't cover the window fitting.  

Are the windows the wrong size? 

All avenues have been taken regarding NHBC, I am now thinking about taking the house builder to small claim court.

Two of the windows have not been fitted to the guidelines by the window manufacture (fitted incorrectly) so the design aspect of the window is that any rain that seeps within the framework should naturally fall down the inbuilt channels and out onto the window sill and away from the house in theory.

However in my case two of the windows have nothing under them as the sill has been fitted\screwed to the front of the window frame.

I have written evidence from the window engineer along with correct engineering diagrams etc plus even the Ombudsman doesn't dispute that the windows have been fitted wrongly but they are not covered under NHBC.

one would assume that when buying a house that it should be watertight to the basic degree for 20/25 years +

I really don't think that you have a case. It's well known that a new house builder's liability ends at two years.  

You bought a house rather than employed a builder directly, so the rules of house buying apply.  No liability after two years.  

diginoo

Doozergirl said:

diginoo said:

Doozergirl said:

Um, if it isn't covered by NHBC and the builder has no liability beyond year 2 then you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.  NHBC is what takes you to 10 years and that is for serious structural issues and even then they'll try to wriggle out of it.  

It's likely to get thrown out of court if you attempt to take NHBC to task on something that isn't covered by their policy.  You have a clearly worded warranty which you say doesn't cover the window fitting.  

Are the windows the wrong size? 

All avenues have been taken regarding NHBC, I am now thinking about taking the house builder to small claim court.

Two of the windows have not been fitted to the guidelines by the window manufacture (fitted incorrectly) so the design aspect of the window is that any rain that seeps within the framework should naturally fall down the inbuilt channels and out onto the window sill and away from the house in theory.

However in my case two of the windows have nothing under them as the sill has been fitted\screwed to the front of the window frame.

I have written evidence from the window engineer along with correct engineering diagrams etc plus even the Ombudsman doesn't dispute that the windows have been fitted wrongly but they are not covered under NHBC.

one would assume that when buying a house that it should be watertight to the basic degree for 20/25 years +

I really don't think that you have a case. It's well known that a new house builder's liability ends at two years.  

You bought a house rather than employed a builder directly, so the rules of house buying apply.  No liability after two years.  

But you would expect a house to be built correctly and manufactured parts that make a house fitted properly. might have well just fitted the window upside down? would you expect that?

diginoo

MikeJXE said:

Basically the window sill has been incorrectly bolted on to front of window and not under window where it should sit so consequently the water that should drain down the window and out now falls into the internal cavity between our walls and leaks out through the top of the window in the lower room. 

So are you saying the hole to fit the window was too small or the window too big ?

Sometimes builders have a template from the window contractor and leave a space in the construction in which the window fits

In other instances the builder leave a space for the widow and the window manufacturer measures up each individually 

If as you say the cill is fixed on the front instead of under,  the hole wasn't big enough and a new window would need to be made. 

A more cost effective way might be to remove the brickwork below, fit the cill under the widow and install a brick or stone cill underneath or even forget the widow cill and use a stone one 

the original internal damage from upstairs window

the hole is probably big enough because there is an inch+ gap at the top of the frame which the builders have disputed that needs sealing - but as pointed out the seal is there but sealed to a batton of wood that they have decided to add to fill the gap and docent quite meet the frame.