Storage Heaters and Asthma - Are the claims true?

EssexHebridean

MattMattMattUK said:

EssexHebridean said:

I'm slightly bemused as to how a NSH could release the gases mentioned, and also what the reference to "unvented" is all about!  

The only way I can see it happening for carbon monoxide and nitrogen dioxide is if something got stuck inside it and burned and I would be far more concerned about something that had somehow got inside and was burning. Formaldehyde can in theory be emitted from certain materials, though none that I would imagine are used in NSH as the two biggest potential sources in the home are composite wood products and natural gas combustion.

Sounds more like one of those myths that has been repeated often enough that some people believe it. 

This was exactly my thinking too Matt, on all counts. It almost sounds as though whoever wrote the bit previously quoted was getting NSH's confused with some other form of heating. (whether deliberately, or through some form of confusion is anyone's guess though)

facade said:

I wondered how a storage heater could produce carbon monoxide, and found this

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/134502/carbon-monoxide-death-electric-storage-heater

The heater and economy 7 timer were faulty (thermostat stuck and timer stayed on for days, the thermal safety fuses blew and were "fixed" with fusewire) and got the cast iron core so hot that it partially melted  and released Carbon monoxide from the oxidation of the carbon in the cast iron.

Not something that could happen normally, it needed two failures and the deliberate bypassing of a safety device.

There is SO much in that scenario that raises red flags isn't there! Aside from anything else, you would think it might have been noted by the owner of said heater that it seemed to be pumping out an unusual level of heat, and was indeed not only too hot to touch, but I would guess also too hot to get too close to. I'm actually surprised that it didn't set fire to anything close by! 

Scot_39

nachtvlinders said:

Apparently, they're meant to be bad for asthma sufferers. I've a service-user who's turned down a bunglow as she saw the photos depicting the heaters. It was a social housing property advertised on Rightmove nd it's very difficult to find anything that's suitable for them that is affordable when they're on benefits. (Currently, they're homeless). I was very put-out when they said this  as they stated they didn't apply as it wasn't appropriate for her health. I've not read enough evidence from the internet to find substantial evidence supporting this. Can anyone advise, please?

Thanks. 

Not saying it is a real risk -

Dust

There are articles about using fans on web - ceiling fans, pedastal/desk - and potential impact of them circulating "dust" impacting asthma and other allergy sufferers.  

Cannot see a reference on Asthma UK against NSH etc - but just putting it out there - and in fact in places asthma UK even suggests using fans to stay cooler in hot weather.

My old NSH - as many others - can adjust the amount of heat "boost" from passive venting to increase air flow.

It's essentially what my "output" setting does. 

New ones rely on being actively vented for most of heat output - so basically in one sense - are kind of fan heaters (cost efficient as taking heat from storage medium rather than heating from live mains).

Does that means that perhaps dust etc can build up - and then be actively circulated in the room - when they heat ?

Or any dust in a room - or settling at floor level - is more actively circulated as fan kicks in an HHR (do they all fan from bottom like Quantums ? - how close to floor and how high is the flow rate - would it really actively disturb any setlled dust ? )

And in any case - would it really be materially any worse for an old NSH than say a GCH wet radiator's convection flow for an old NSH.

Dust build up happens on other heat sources too of course.  That unpleasant smell sometimes when switch on a convection panel or kitchen/bathroom fan etc at the start of winter - is the heater burning off some of dust etc thats settled in or simply on the heater etc - and circulating the rest of it.  Unpleasent to many - possibly far worse for an asthmatic.  But indicates that dust etc is getting on or in there.

So maybe the same thing happens on a much smaller level with NSH (not the burn - but the circulate I would guess).

pochase

Dust in itself is a risk for asthma sufferers, no matter what type of heating.

doodling

With respect to humidity, a lot depends on how you measure it.

Absolute humidity is not affected by storage heaters - they do not emit or absorb water 

Relative humidity is affected by storage heaters (pretty much all heaters in fact) because relative humidity will vary according to temperature (given the same amount of water in the air) and the purpose of a heater is to change the temperature.

What you might find is that with some heaters people are sensitive to the effect of the heating element on any dust passing through the heater.  Lower temperature heators (e.g. radiators) will have no effect on that dust but higher temperature heaters (e.g. many forms of electric heating) have very hot elements which can cause a small amount of burning of the dust.  I suspect that this is what people are talking about when complaining that a form of heat is too dry.

TheGardener

Don't know if I'm missing something here - but surely being homeless and potentially rough sleeping in the UK in the middle of winter - pretty sure that would aggravate anyone's asthma...I think the OP's client might be looking for excuses really...

Apodemus

facade said:

I wondered how a storage heater could produce carbon monoxide, and found this

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/134502/carbon-monoxide-death-electric-storage-heater

The heater and economy 7 timer were faulty (thermostat stuck and timer stayed on for days, the thermal safety fuses blew and were "fixed" with fusewire) and got the cast iron core so hot that it partially melted  and released Carbon monoxide from the oxidation of the carbon in the cast iron.

Not something that could happen normally, it needed two failures and the deliberate bypassing of a safety device.

Did you read the details of the storage heater?!    

This was a 10kW storage heater (made up of nine heating elements - selectable for heat demand), with both off-peak and continuous mains supplies connected. Cast iron core temperature was controlled at 660 degs C by thermostat, in series with; a safety thermal trip (manual reset), set to 740 degs C. A final safety feature was three thermal fuses, each controlling a section of the heater bank. These fuses were located in the outer casing of the heater and would have opened at 202 degs C.

Is that for real?

facade

Apodemus said:

Did you read the details of the storage heater?!    

This was a 10kW storage heater (made up of nine heating elements - selectable for heat demand), with both off-peak and continuous mains supplies connected. Cast iron core temperature was controlled at 660 degs C by thermostat, in series with; a safety thermal trip (manual reset), set to 740 degs C. A final safety feature was three thermal fuses, each controlling a section of the heater bank. These fuses were located in the outer casing of the heater and would have opened at 202 degs C.

Is that for real?

I don't know enough about storage heaters, but as the shc of cast iron is pretty low (460 J/kg deg C), the core would need to be massively hot (or weigh hundreds of kg) to store a worthwhile amount of heat, they haven't mixed up Celsius and Fahrenheit either as cast iron melts around 1200C.

The 600g of carbon would require 15kg of cast iron to decompose, and a 10kW, therefore 70kWh storage heater is probably a huge thing!

mnbvcxz

I can't see that a storage heater would intrinsicly make a house worse for asthmas (though some do have fans).

But I suspect they tend to make a house more expensive to heat and are more common in older houses making damp and such more likely. So while gas central heating is no guarantee of an asthma friendly house it is more probable to be one than with storage heaters. 

So the person may not have been entirely mad with their thinking. Though I would guess the reality is simply that someone had once told them to avoid storage heaters and they had taken it to heart.

sheramber

After many years of use, it was discovered that unvented or faulty storage heaters could end up releasing deadly gases like carbon monoxide, formaldehyde and nitrogen dioxide, which can make you sick or even cause death. At low levels, nitrogen dioxide can affect your respiratory system and trigger symptoms in those with asthma and other respiratory conditions.

Are these gases not bad for everybody, whether they have asthma or not?

EssexHebridean

sheramber said:

After many years of use, it was discovered that unvented or faulty storage heaters could end up releasing deadly gases like carbon monoxide, formaldehyde and nitrogen dioxide, which can make you sick or even cause death. At low levels, nitrogen dioxide can affect your respiratory system and trigger symptoms in those with asthma and other respiratory conditions.

Are these gases not bad for everybody, whether they have asthma or not?

Yes. However, those gases are not going to be released by Storage Heaters. This was discussed earlier in the thread.