Catheters / carers and pip

Good morning

if Someone needs to use continence pads 24h a day AND they get a carer to catheterise them 2 to 5 times a day (intermittent urinary catheter) would that fall into toilet needs, managing therapy or both? How many point if they mark it correctly? 

Thanks
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  • calcotti
    calcotti Posts: 15,696
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    edited 20 January 2023 at 2:38PM
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Some rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • poppy12345
    poppy12345 Posts: 17,716
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    A catheter doesn't come under managing therapy so no points can be scored for that. It may fall into managing toilet needs but check the link above.
  • It HAS to come under toileting needs. It is a toilet aid 
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  • calcotti
    calcotti Posts: 15,696
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    edited 20 January 2023 at 3:03PM
    i think this is going come down as "Needs assistance to be able to manage incontinence of either bladder or bowel" which is 6 points.

    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Some rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • The issue here would be whether they NEED someone for the intermittent catheterisation or whether they could do it themselves most of the time (safely and reliably of course).  So they'd have to explain why they need help with it, as intermittent catheterisation isn't inherently something that has to be done by someone else. 

    The link calcotti provided will help, do make sure to read the relevant section. 
  • calcotti
    calcotti Posts: 15,696
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    The issue here would be whether they NEED someone for the intermittent catheterisation or whether they could do it themselves most of the time (safely and reliably of course).  So they'd have to explain why they need help with it, as intermittent catheterisation isn't inherently something that has to be done by someone else. 
    Absolutely - explaining why it is a need would be essential.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Some rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • Alice_Holt
    Alice_Holt Posts: 5,850
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    edited 20 January 2023 at 3:14PM
    Having the need to use pads should be classed as an aid - so the base score should be 2 points for toileting needs.

    As spoonie says the 6 point descriptor would hinge on why they can't reliably do it themselves - therefore the importance of putting full information on the PIP form.

    Look at pages 101 on:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1092461/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-assessment-criteria.pdf
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  • But the catheter being put in by a carer would count as needing someone else to manage  toileting needs so superseded the pads I expect 
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  • And it is also needing someone to manage therapy (as a catheter is therapy) so I don’t see why it wouldn’t count in both descriptors
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  • Spoonie_Turtle
    Spoonie_Turtle Posts: 8,146
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    edited 20 January 2023 at 5:02PM
    But the catheter being put in by a carer would count as needing someone else to manage  toileting needs so superseded the pads I expect 
    Yes, if two descriptors apply equally then the highest scoring one is chosen.

    And it is also needing someone to manage therapy (as a catheter is therapy) so I don’t see why it wouldn’t count in both descriptors
    You need to read the link, it is not therapy when the purpose is to empty the bladder, as is the usual purpose. 
    (If it were required for urethral dilation for a certain condition perhaps, not when needing to empty the bladder, then that could be argued to be therapy BUT that would be an activity with a distinct purpose, dilation using catheters, addressing a different need - not addressing the immediate toileting need to empty the bladder.) 

    There is also case law about this 
    https://www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribunal-decisions/as-v-secretary-of-state-for-work-and-pensions-pip-2017-ukut-104-aac
    https://pipinfo.net/activities/managing-toilet-needs-or-incontinence
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