Heat Pump question

Screwdriva

We experienced a 31% reduction in gas consumption after some household improvements & installing a Viessmann 200-W gas boiler. When paired to the Octopus Gas Tracker tariff, which has been hovering between 25-40% below the current price cap, our heating costs have plummeted to a level not seen since better geopolitical times. Not as green as a ASHP by any means, but a step in the right direction for those who cannot get an ASHP for whatever reason.

We have not paid for energy (gas or electric) since 4/22.

(All savings go straight to our ASHP piggy bank BTW).

Reed_Richards

That's if @PaulbytheRidgeway actually has access to a gas supply, @Screwdriva .  If they are using oil now I think it's more likely that they don't.  Or was your comment addressed to @QrizB (who I suspect already knows about your wonder-boiler).

PaulbytheRidgeway

Reed_Richards said:

That's if @PaulbytheRidgeway actually has access to a gas supply, @Screwdriva .  If they are using oil now I think it's more likely that they don't.  Or was your comment addressed to @QrizB (who I suspect already knows about your wonder-boiler).

So, to previous questions - Yes we asked Octopus and a local renewable energy supplier and both were quite a few £K more expensive than Good Energy.  I also asked a specialist drilling firm for a price for ground source heat pump using borehole (x3) just to know how this compared. This was a tad more expensive with £45/m borehole depth (we would need c300m for a 9-12kWh HP) plus all the other works so not much change from £40k....I can't see that being an option.  I am still umming and arring...Oh yes, we don't have access to gas either - just oil and logs.   

Reed_Richards

I also looked at the cost of a Ground Source Heat Pump.  You either need a paddock, a large area of ground that you can dig up once but never again, or you need boreholes.  I don't have a paddock so I got an estimate for boreholes and the cost would have been prohibitively expensive.  

michaels

Reed_Richards said:

I also looked at the cost of a Ground Source Heat Pump.  You either need a paddock, a large area of ground that you can dig up once but never again, or you need boreholes.  I don't have a paddock so I got an estimate for boreholes and the cost would have been prohibitively expensive.  

The old 'fit' type scheme for heat pumps made bore hole slightly possible but for us because our EPC assessed usage was much smaller than our actual usage the economics still need not make sense.

Screwdriva

PaulbytheRidgeway said:

So, to previous questions - Yes we asked Octopus and a local renewable energy supplier and both were quite a few £K more expensive than Good Energy. 

Wondering if you have reached out to a Heat Geek Elite installer in your area? They typically install Vaillant AroTherm+ ASHPs and I've seen installs cost  < £6K (example of a recent quote below). The results I've reviewed consistently exceed 3.2 SCOP, sometimes as high as 4 in the real world (variability depending on system flow temps, insulation etc.)

Reed_Richards

Screwdriva said:
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Wondering if you have reached out to a Heat Geek Elite installer in your area? They typically install Vaillant AroTherm+ ASHPs and I've seen installs cost  < £6K (example of a recent quote below). The results I've reviewed consistently exceed 3.2 SCOP, sometimes as high as 4 in the real world (variability depending on system flow temps, insulation etc.).

I read elsewhere that a Heat Geek installer will now guarantee and SCOP of 4 and come back to fix your installation if you don't achieve that.  It sounds a bit too good to be true (and must require that you can actually measure your own SCOP).  Have you heard about this @Screwdriva?  

Screwdriva

Reed_Richards said:

I read elsewhere that a Heat Geek installer will now guarantee and SCOP of 4 and come back to fix your installation if you don't achieve that.  It sounds a bit too good to be true (and must require that you can actually measure your own SCOP).  Have you heard about this @Screwdriva?  

Yes. Part of their “assured” program. But this comes at a £2K or more premium over an Elite Heat Geek install. Worth it if you are scarce on quality installer coverage. 

That said, I often find this “assurance” can be negotiated into the installer agreement directly. 

PaulbytheRidgeway

Screwdriva said:

Reed_Richards said:

I read elsewhere that a Heat Geek installer will now guarantee and SCOP of 4 and come back to fix your installation if you don't achieve that.  It sounds a bit too good to be true (and must require that you can actually measure your own SCOP).  Have you heard about this @Screwdriva?  

Yes. Part of their “assured” program. But this comes at a £2K or more premium over an Elite Heat Geek install. Worth it if you are scarce on quality installer coverage. 

That said, I often find this “assurance” can be negotiated into the installer agreement directly. 

Screwdriva/Reed Richards. This assurance is something missing from my quote from a company that isn't called 'Bad Power'...and is why I've backed away from the proposal that came with my £250 survey fee.  I wish I had heard about Heat Geeks before...but at least I know now.   

There's 5 reasons I haven't gone with my supplier....

1. They were charging me £146 per replacement rad (me to supply) to install it and TRVs etc using same pipework, rather than using a day rate. I said this is like a car mechanic charging you full cost for engine removal for each of the engine, gearbox, clutch and slave cylinder when they are replaced at the same time...just because I couldn't think of a better analogy. 

2. The SCOP they quoted at 3.68  is manufacturer supplied for each heat pump and is based on 2 out of the 3 EU reference locations....it's just an EU labelling system. England only uses the warm and standard locations...not the third in Helsinki for the 'cool' factor. Everything in the design is geared towards meeting this generic spec...but there are no performance and cost guarantees whatsoever and no specific site assessments...despite me pointing out our house's frost shade hollow situation (we get no sun Nov-Feb and when frost arrives it never leaves) which probably massively affects the COP.  Sure these systems work in Helsinki...but they have triple glazed windows, underfloor heating, super insulation and zero drafts..so energy demand and loss is much reduced. All our £250 seems to have bought is room and rad measurements which another company then does the design...and there are so many protections for installer and nothing fixed for us at all when it comes to the detail of the install and actual cost calcs.

3. The 10 year warranty isn't from manufacturer or installer.  It's from the distributor and depends on installer doing their training and customer paying for 10 years of their annual maintenance...so everything is geared to distributer/manufacturer products as they are pro installer...so there's no guarantee our system is best available for the specifics of our home and use patterns and no choice. I had no idea our 'Bad Power' firm wasn't acting independently to get the best solution. 

4. I asked a question  re fan noise performance guarantee over warranty period but it wasn't answered. All fans get noisier over time. I wanted to know at what noise level does it become a warranty replace in those 10 years. 

5. All the financial loading is up front on us...with all bar the BUS being paid up front before install.  The same applies to cost/performance guarantees(of which there are none). There's no minimum standard COP they guarantee because my survey money didn't pay for specifics, which was my expectation . So they remove my lovely, reliable and predictable oil boiler and leave all the risk and electricity cost for SCOP falling below 1 on us .....pointing to the small print which states all is an estimate. We also bear the risk of if gvt stops BUS. 

It's ended up being almost a total waste of my time.    I really expected detailed COP calculations and minimum COP/cost guarantees based on my house and it's orientation/issues over a 10 year period...not just generic cut and paste and the tie-in with manufacturer and distributor.  

So - be warned I guess. 

Screwdriva

Wise move Paul - I wouldn't give up on the technology and try the Heat Geek route. It may lead to a good outcome for you!