Downpipe connection with guttering

emc

The downpipe on my 3 storey house is joined to the gutter running outlet via offset bends, and recently the top of the offset bend came out from the gutter outlet, so that rainwater from the gutter outlet was not draining into the offset bend and thence into the pipe, but splashing onto the wall of the house.

A gutter repair man said the downpipe was too loose, and had dropped, so he pushed the pipe up to make the offset bend engage in the gutter outlet, and he used two screws to stop the pipe dropping, one screw into the pipe through the bottom bracket holding the pipe to the wall, and one screw at the top of the offset bend into the gutter outlet.

I am concerned that the weight of the downpipe may in time cause the bottom (plastic) bracket to break, and the weight may also weaken the gutter outlet.

The other concern is whether fixing the pipe against the gutter outlet and bottom bracket may cause a problem with the expansion and contraction of the plastic pipe.

Can anyone advise me on whether the repair method is sound, or what would be a better method for a lasting solution?

Thanks.

victor2

It sounds like a bodge!
The downpipe should not be screwed to the guttering, it should be supported by brackets fixed to the wall, as it presumably was once.
It is those brackets that should be sorted out IMO.

ThisIsWeird

The intended design is either for the brackets to have enough grip on the DP in order to prevent it from slipping, or else the bottom of the DP - where it 'shoes' or fits into a gulley - is supported enough to prevent the upper joints coming apart. As you've discovered, the actual joints/connectors are a loose, slip-on fit, with plenty of play.

Although a bit bodgy, I think there's actually a good chance the fix will be fine. An issue is that only one bracket is now taking the whole DP weight. If there's only one screw into one elbow at the top, then I presume the gutter outlet is only carrying the additional weight of one wee elbow? Hardly a problem.

What's the worst that can happen?! The bottom bracket bends down over time, or breaks? Two screws (well, three now) and £2 to replace

Could you post a photo of the bottom of the DP so we can see if there's some support or brace we can suggest?

MikeJXE

Yes it's a bodge but a typical bodge

This is an an going problem with some downspouts as the brackets are rarely a light fit and the downspout is not resting on a support

What has been done can work and there is not much more you can do, even gluing the joints it can still slip out of the gutter or drag it down,

A better solution is to support the downspout 

EssexExile

It all sounds fine to me. If the downpipe isn't firmly fixed anywhere it will gradually creep down as it expands and contracts with heat variations. Assuming it's all plastic a screw through a bracket will be fine, a downpipe hardly weighs anything.

plumb1_2

The problem with using screws like that is the length of them, if they protrude inside the pipe they will catch any debris going down and then block up.
Much better to fit a new pipe clip. I usually drill them into the mortar joints on a angle so they tighten onto the pipe.

emc

Many thanks for all your helpful comments and suggestions. 

ThisIsWeird

The photo I really wanted was one of the bottom

As plumb says, provided the screws aren't too long, it is a 'solution', albeit not the ideal one. But the 'proper' fix - possibly requiring an extra length of DP, would almost certainly be more costly.

I'd personally like a wee screw in each bracket, or half of them at least - share the load.

But, the guy has 'fixed' it, possibly permanently, and hopefully for a not-silly sum?

Any chance of one more photo, please?

Section62

emc said:

Can anyone advise me on whether the repair method is sound, or what would be a better method for a lasting solution?

The optimal method is using socketed downpipe, or solvent welding a socket/bend onto the upper end of the pipe.

Either of these will mean the fitting on the upper end of the downpipe has a larger diameter than the pipe - and therefore if the top bracket is installed so it is snug against the fitting, the pipe cannot slip down. In effect it is 'hanging' from a positive support at the top, rather than being held in place by friction between clips and plain pipe.

If more than one pipe is needed to reach ground level then the same approach should be adopted at the top of each of the lower pipes.  Expansion/contraction is catered for by the bottom end of each pipe not being inserted full-depth into the fitting of the pipe below.

In essence this is how traditional cast-iron rainwater downpipes were installed, and was essential as they were heavy.  Because uPVC is that much lighter, the old techniques are less commonly used, and so bodges such as using screws have become necessary.

This diagram (from the Wavin/Osma technical guidance) shows how the lower offset bend (0T025) should be resting on top of the bracket (0T034) - with no gap. It is essential for the offset bend to be solvent welded to the pipe if the bracket is to fully support the weight of the pipe.

MikeJXE

Section62 said:

emc said:

Can anyone advise me on whether the repair method is sound, or what would be a better method for a lasting solution?

The optimal method is using socketed downpipe, or solvent welding a socket/bend onto the upper end of the pipe.

Either of these will mean the fitting on the upper end of the downpipe has a larger diameter than the pipe - and therefore if the top bracket is installed so it is snug against the fitting, the pipe cannot slip down. In effect it is 'hanging' from a positive support at the top, rather than being held in place by friction between clips and plain pipe.

If more than one pipe is needed to reach ground level then the same approach should be adopted at the top of each of the lower pipes.  Expansion/contraction is catered for by the bottom end of each pipe not being inserted full-depth into the fitting of the pipe below.

In essence this is how traditional cast-iron rainwater downpipes were installed, and was essential as they were heavy.  Because uPVC is that much lighter, the old techniques are less commonly used, and so bodges such as using screws have become necessary.

This diagram (from the Wavin/Osma technical guidance) shows how the lower offset bend (0T025) should be resting on top of the bracket (0T034) - with no gap. It is essential for the offset bend to be solvent welded to the pipe if the bracket is to fully support the weight of the pipe.

Thats all very well but pennies count now days and builders go for the cheapest, If you look closely at the top of the downspout it doesn't seem to have a collar which = cheaper than one that does, hence thats why it slips. 

Section62

MikeJXE said:

Thats all very well but pennies count now days and builders go for the cheapest, If you look closely at the top of the downspout it doesn't seem to have a collar which = cheaper than one that does, hence thats why it slips. 

I'd suggest it is more about the lack of training and/or lack of knowledge.

If you look at the mid-join they have installed a bracket about two brick courses above the join and another one about 6 courses below.  If they had used one bracket fitted snugly below the collar of the pipe joiner then the pipe wouldn't be slipping down and wouldn't need the screws.

They probably should have installed more brackets overall, but that's another issue.

The savings they made in materials (if any) isn't going to cover the cost of a return visit to fix defective work.  Correct use of the materials they were using anyway would have saved the hassle both sides were put to.