PCN - CE Ltd - Possible 'Golden Ticket' ?? - Company Vehicle

retro_777

Hi, 

I was forwarded a PCN on 03/01/2023 that had been sent to my employer from Civil Enforcement Ltd. This is a company vehicle of which I am the keeper. The employer has had no correspondence with CE Ltd and has simply forwarded this onto me as the keeper. 

The reason given for the PCN was 'payment not made in accordance on signage/permit holders only'. There is a 20 min period in which payment must be made on arrival. The driver missed this but did pay before leaving. The incident date of the PCN was 17/10/2022 and the issue date was 29/12/2022.  I have read through the newbie thread as well as quite a few other posts but I'm still unsure how to proceed. 

I have requested the landowners details from the venue but I believe it is council owned. Once I have these I will submit a complaint as 'Plan A'. 

If unsuccessful I gather that I need to name myself as the keeper in order to stop CE from contacting my employer, but have seen conflicting information on the best way to do this.

Should I appeal this straight away as the keeper, not naming the driver, with the basic template in the newbie thread, using the online appeals system? I saw another post where someone had done this with CE Ltd but it didn't work and they ended up having to produce an extremely detailed argument to send to POPLA of which I'm not sure I have the capacity/intellect to do. 

Will the fact that this has been issued 2+ months after the incident be enough to render this invalid and if so, should the appeal state as much? 

Thanks. 

Umkomaas

If unsuccessful I gather that I need to name myself as the keeper in order to stop CE from contacting my employer, but have seen conflicting information on the best way to do this. 

If the PCN is issued in the name of your employer, you cannot do that. Your employer must transfer liability to you - as the day-to-day keeper (not driver) - via the pro forma usually on the reverse side of the PCN. Then CEL will write to you.

While the dates between parking event and PCN issue you quote appear to make it PoFA non-compliant for keeper liability, that only applies to your employer, you cannot benefit from it as it stands. 

Grizebeck

If its non pofa as you say just do the appeal online https://ce-service.co.uk in the employers. CEL will most likely cancel if you appeal on liability

Grizebeck

Should add CEL do all replies via email now so they will reply directly to you
and one thing they have actually implemented is that on online appeals they verify the email address , one small positive!!! 

retro_777

The only thing on the back of the PCN is information on how to pay. It mentions 'We have photographic evidence of this incident... if you are not the driver of the veicle, notify us of the name and current address..' etc. From what I understand there is no legal obligation to do this. 

I didn't realise this was an option (appealing as the employer). Thank you. Is there any particular wording or template that I should use to do this? Or should I just use the standard one in the newbie thread?

I have had correspondence with them before for a previous invoice which was paid due to being ill-informed at the time, so they likely have my email/name from this. Will this matter? 

Grizebeck

retro_777 said:

The only thing on the back of the PCN is information on how to pay. It mentions 'We have photographic evidence of this incident... if you are not the driver of the veicle, notify us of the name and current address..' etc. From what I understand there is no legal obligation to do this. 

I didn't realise this was an option (appealing as the employer). Thank you. Is there any particular wording or template that I should use to do this? Or should I just use the standard one in the newbie thread?

I have had correspondence with them before for a previous invoice which was paid due to being ill-informed at the time, so they likely have my email/name from this. Will this matter? 

No completely irrelevant
I would just do an appeal based on it being non pofa (if your certain) and no keeper liability etc etc. Find suitable wording
No dont use the forum one for this just something that shows they cant hold the keeper liable etc

retro_777

Thank you. Just to check, I'm certain of the dates and the time between the date of incident and date of issue are correct as I originally posted but is this alone enough to make it non POFA?

Grizebeck

Yes but is the car a lease car or directly owned by the firm

Umkomaas

retro_777 said:

Thank you. Just to check, I'm certain of the dates and the time between the date of incident and date of issue are correct as I originally posted but is this alone enough to make it non POFA?

Sometimes an unusual time delay between parking event and NtK issue date can indicate that a hire/lease car is involved where, initially the PPC writes to the hire/lease company as registered keeper, who then passes liability to the hirer by providing their details to the PPC. Could this be the case here?

So dates, per se, might not be the killer factor. There are hire agreement copies that the PPC has to obtain from the hire company and then attach them to the NtK. But without knowing precisely what the full detail is, it's hard to be certain. 

Can we see a redacted copy of the NtK you currently hold - leave dates showing, but redact employer's detail, car reg number and any reference numbers showing. 

retro_777

It won't allow me to post the hosting link of the image. I have to be around a while longer to do that apparently. 

The vehicle is owned by the employer, no lease company involved. The PCN was addressed directly to the employer and was then forwarded straight to me. The only documents I received was the PCN.

Grizebeck

retro_777 said:

It won't allow me to post the hosting link of the image. I have to be around a while longer to do that apparently. 

The vehicle is owned by the employer, no lease company involved. The PCN was addressed directly to the employer and was then forwarded straight to me. The only documents I received was the PCN.

Ok so use this. Click keeper option on the ce site 

this is an appeal by the registered keeper - No driver details will be given. Please do NOT try the usual Group Nexus Trick of asking for driver details in order to get around the fact your NTK does not comply with POFA. As there is no keeper liability then liability cannot flow from the driver to the keeper and thus is an auto win @ POPLA. Please therefore cancel the notice or issue a POPLA code where you will auto withdraw