front of house (not driveway) planning permission?

ariarnia

next year one of the things we want to do is redo the front of the house. the question is what we can do without needing planing permission or how to go about getting planning permission (what are we actually asking for). 

from the front door to the edge of the property is about 10 (OH estemates about 20) foot. then theres a 4 ish foot drop to the pavement. (i keep forgetting ask OH to actually measure but he's just said he'll do it tomorrow if i remind him). 

at the moment its terraced with a six or 7 foot square paving section then the rest is gravel and a concrete path. on the right hand side theres a sloping path that's maybe 3 foot wide (it's literally the width of the wheel bin). its got 2 shallow steps right at pavement level. then another 2 more normal size steps up onto the paved area. then a step up to the front door.  

to be clear we DO NOT want a drive. we dont want a dropped curb and wont be parking cars on the front even if its big enough.

ideally the whole thing would be one slope but i think that would be 2 steep so what we are thinking is put in a wider (5 or 6 foot) slope with a big flat (not very steep slope) bit at the bottom to have pallets of fuel delivered without them being dumped on the road illegally. and then wider shallow steps for it to be easier for me to get in and out of the house (I have mobility problems so sometimes use sticks or walk holding OH's arm so really need it to be 2 people wide). 

2 very bad drawings showing what i'm talking about. can anyone help with if this would need planing permission (NW england) and if its doable with the kind of slope we're talking about. 

MikeJXE

You don't need planning for that but there may be cables or drains in the immediate area 

ariarnia

thanks. i didn't think so but someone said something about increasing the amount of concrete or non draining surface needing planning becayse of flooding which is why i dont know if we can make it concrete (which is cheaper and can be textured for grip) or if it has to be pavers (which we could do). 

i was also wondering about the angle of the slope and if anyone could see any problems there but i know that needs OH to actually go out and measure (happy new year everyone by the way). or if anyone had any better idea given the drop for how we could do it. 

Section62

ariarnia said:

2 very bad drawings showing what i'm talking about. can anyone help with if this would need planing permission (NW england) and if its doable with the kind of slope we're talking about. 

The planning answer has to be 'maybe'.  The best way of finding out is to speak to our local planning department and ask them for advice.  Many councils now charge for providing any pre-application advice, but you may get lucky.

The starting point with planning law is any "development" requires planning consent.  Some types of development have been given planning consent (subject to meeting various conditions) by the Secretary of State (permitted development).  In turn, councils can use an Article 4 direction to remove permitted development rights, meaning explicit consent is needed for all "development" of whatever type(s) the Article 4 direction covers.

It is simply impossible for any of us to say whether you do or don't need to apply for planning consent.

You'd need to start by finding out whether there are any planning conditions or article 4 directions applying to the property, then working through all the changes you'd like to make to ensure all of them fall within permitted development.  Development at the front of properties is the most restricted, so extra care is needed to make sure you stay within the law.

Designing slopes and steps safely is a bit of a specialist subject.  I wouldn't just go to a general builder and ask them to do it for you without having a design to work from.  It is important to get the details right, as (for example) even a small difference in height between steps can be a fall hazard.  Steps and slopes should be designed to comply with guidance and any applicable building regulations.  For example, the surface at the top and bottom of a flight of steps should be level (rather than sloping) - a surface which slopes away from the bottom step (i.e. as shown on your drawing) is a particular hazard.  This is especially important for people with mobility problems.

If you have a large area of surfacing sloping towards the road the highway authority may require you to put in drainage to stop your runoff from going onto the highway.  Some highway authorities also require unbound materials like gravel to be kept a certain distance from the highway (or be retained in some way) to stop the material being carried onto the highway.

Given the level difference between the house and the road, I think you may be better off considering using a dog-leg 'ramp' across the garden, rather than a straight rise of steps.  It would be easier to achive a safer gradient, which would also have the advantage of being more suitable for use with wheeled trolleys (for shifting the fuel) and/or wheelchairs.  Designed carefully this doesn't need to look like a utilitarian "disabled ramp", but rather an architectural/landscaping feature with opportunities for planting etc.  In general I'd suggest anyone spending money on work like this should think about how they (or others) might be using it in the future, rather than just concentrating on what works/looks good today.

It is a personal choice, but you may also want to consider whether your mobility problems may mean you can get help from the council - not necessarily financial help for the work, but some councils do provide free advice (or oil the planning wheels) for what they term "adaptations" that make properties more accessible or safer.  Having worked in that area myself I'd always encourage people to consider asking for their advice, or suggestions on who to go to if they can't help you directly.

ariarnia

thank you for that really useful post. the idea of a dog leg or something like that sounds good. we can talk to someone at the council but when i tried to do it before we spoke to a really lovely woman who was really positive. then referred me to a bloke that didn't even bother to contact us back (we called back and she tried emailing him several times asking him to cal us) so i guess he was busy or thats not something they do. we can try again when we have scoped things out a bit

we are also thinking about an extension on the back of the house (semi detached) to make the kitchen bigger and add a utility room. not a next year project but a foreseable maybe 5 year one. we think its a permitted development because of the size we're thinking but we would probably want an expert to help us plan and design it either way. question is do we want a 'chartered architectural technologist' or a riba architect or a structural engineer or some other professional? 

sorry for the silly questions but we lived here for about 10 years and bought it from our landlord in early 2020 so this is something thats been a small problem for a while but we havent been able to do anything about really. we want to sort it but have no real favourite way we want to do it and we've lived with it so long its not a burning rush. 

 

Section62

ariarnia said:

we are also thinking about an extension on the back of the house (semi detached) to make the kitchen bigger and add a utility room. not a next year project but a foreseable maybe 5 year one. we think its a permitted development because of the size we're thinking but we would probably want an expert to help us plan and design it either way. question is do we want a 'chartered architectural technologist' or a riba architect or a structural engineer or some other professional?

If someone from the council is meant to phone you back and doesn't then I would find out who their line manager or servie director is and contact them instead.... sometimes overworked local authority staff prioritise the issues which are generating the most heat and noise.

If you are also planning major building work then you may want to hold off on the work at the front if you can - there's no point getting the front sorted out nicely and then having it trashed by builders working on the extension.  if you can't wait, then consider only doing as much work as necessary and/or think about the choice of materials you use, so the risk of damage is minimised.  On the other hand the builders may appreciate being able to get stuff in and out via a nicely graded ramp, rather than having to bounce it up and down steps, so getting the timing of the two projects right is important.

I would probably start with a RIBA architect - they may need to get a structural engineer involved to check the slope stability and/or design any retaining walls.  Perhaps it would make sense to get them to design the extension and the work at the front now, then seek advice from the council regarding planning.  Make sure you end up with the extension you want, rather than artificially restricting yourself within the permitted development rules.  Sometimes people lose sight of what is important and make compromises simply to avoid the planning process, which isn't necessarily as onerous as often believed.

If you do need planning consent then combining the work at the front with the extension makes sense - and you could get clarity from the council that if you make a start at the front, the consent for the extension won't expire before you are ready to do it.

ariarnia

you are a superstar

Brie

Just as a side bit - if there's a slope I'd be getting rid of the gravel.  We had a gravelled portion of our garden and we were forever trying to move the gravel back up the slope.  In the end we got rid of the gravel as that was easier to do than get rid of the slope.

Is there someone in the council you could talk about regarding amendments to the property to assist with your mobility for getting in/out?  When we moved in with MiL who had major issues there was all sorts of things that were offered regarding making the house more accessible for her including them putting in ramps suitable for a wheelchair.  As I recall this was all going to be at council/gov expense so might be worth investigating.

ariarnia

Brie said:

Just as a side bit - if there's a slope I'd be getting rid of the gravel.  We had a gravelled portion of our garden and we were forever trying to move the gravel back up the slope.  In the end we got rid of the gravel as that was easier to do than get rid of the slope.

Is there someone in the council you could talk about regarding amendments to the property to assist with your mobility for getting in/out?  When we moved in with MiL who had major issues there was all sorts of things that were offered regarding making the house more accessible for her including them putting in ramps suitable for a wheelchair.  As I recall this was all going to be at council/gov expense so might be worth investigating.

thank you. 

sorry if my picture was naff. the gravel and the paved area are currently flat at the level of the front door with a retaining wall and 4 foot drop to the curb. 

i dont know if saying mobility problems is a bit of a red herring? i struggle. sometimes more than others. but i dont qualify for  a blue badge or anything. its just about making it easier by making the existing path a bit wider. both for me and for deliveries and if we can sort a way to get pallets delivered that doesn't mean OH has to be home and then spend a frantic hour lugging everything around the back because its been dumped on the road/pavement. (and that flat bit of gravel is actually handy as its big enough for a skip and they can lift it over the wall.)

and i just remembered to ask oh to go out and measure (it's dark outside but his not scared ) and he's right. its 22 foot from the door to the pavement and not quite 4 foot rise. the path is currently 2.5 foot so we would basically just want to double it.  

markin

Im struggling to picture it no matter how many time i read it, A picture is worth a thousand words.



And less seriously, Are you wanting something like this.







Or this

ariarnia

more like the second (thats' a great picture i'll steal it for my planning board)

so wide shallow steps or a ramp if we can manage the angle but it will only be about half the width of the front and the flat gravel bit will stay (its handy for skips) 

OH did measure yesterday and we're talking a space about 22 by 22 with a 4 foot drop. 

sorry but i dont really want to put a picture of the front of the house (with the number and everything) on the internet.