Complicated intestacy.

Silvertabby

You may want to make yourselves a brew before starting to read this one....

My friend, who lives in Oz, lost her mother last year.  She and her brother,  who lives in the UK (as did mum) were her sole beneficiaries, and each received £80K.  Probate etc was dealt with by solicitors, as the brother has mental health problems.  So far, so easy...

The brother died 4 months ago, without leaving a Will.

Seems he married some years ago, but his wife, who had her own mental health and substance abuse problems, left him after just a couple of months and hasn't been seen since.

The brother had a son from another relationship, and then that son went on to have a daughter, my friend's brother's granddaughter.  However, the (estranged) son pre-deceased his father.

The brother's estate, being the bulk of the £80K left to him by his mother, is being handled by the same solicitors who handled the mum's estate.

As it stands at the moment, the solicitors are trying to track down the brother's wife, but no trace so far - not even a death registration.  If she has died, then my understanding is that this £80K (or what is left after debts/funeral expenses/legal fees) MAY go to the granddaughter.

My friend, however, has other ideas.  I've told her to forget that the money originally came from her mum as that link has been broken.  I've also told her that the solicitors will do everything they can to find the wife before distributing the remaining assets, because if they get it wrong then they would be financially liable.

I've told my friend to forget about the money, as it's unlikely to come to her.  However  she is obsessing about it as, in her mind, the wife probably overdosed long ago, and the granddaughter shouldn't get a penny of (my friend's mother's) money because her brother never even met her.

Every time we have a (long!) conversation about this, and I think I've finally got through to her, she ends with saying that she's going to get on to the solicitors, as it shouldn't take this long to pay her 'her' money.

Possibly crystal ball time, but any ideas how long the solicitors will wait before giving up on finding the wife - or is it possible that they will refuse to disburse the funds without proof of her death?  And, if she has died, would the granddaughter still automatically inherit, given that there may not be any documentary proof of her relationship to my friend's brother (ie, father's names on her and her father's birth certificates)?

Keep_pedalling

It’s not really complicated, intestacy rules are quite straight forward. In this case your friend’s bother has a grandchild so she won’t inherit anything even if his wife is dead. 

I doubt if the solicitor will not be able to trace the missing wife, but if she can’t be found they have option in how to handle the estate.

https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-jan-apr-2017/what-happens-if-a-beneficiary-cant-be-found/

Silvertabby

Keep_pedalling said:

It’s not really complicated, intestacy rules are quite straight forward. In this case your friend’s bother has a grandchild so she won’t inherit anything even if his wife is dead. 

I doubt if the solicitor will not be able to trace the missing wife, but if she can’t be found they have option in how to handle the estate.

https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-jan-apr-2017/what-happens-if-a-beneficiary-cant-be-found/

Thanks - that link makes interesting reading.

Still not sure about the granddaughter, though.  It's all a bit muddled, but it seems that the brother and the mother of his son weren't together at the time of the birth, ditto the son and the mother of the granddaughter.  If either/both fathers weren't listed on the birth certificates, then what else could be used to prove eligibility?

Flugelhorn

Silvertabby said:

Keep_pedalling said:

It’s not really complicated, intestacy rules are quite straight forward. In this case your friend’s bother has a grandchild so she won’t inherit anything even if his wife is dead. 

I doubt if the solicitor will not be able to trace the missing wife, but if she can’t be found they have option in how to handle the estate.

https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-jan-apr-2017/what-happens-if-a-beneficiary-cant-be-found/

Thanks - that link makes interesting reading.

Still not sure about the granddaughter, though.  It's all a bit muddled, but it seems that the brother and the mother of his son weren't together at the time of the birth, ditto the son and the mother of the granddaughter.  If either/both fathers weren't listed on the birth certificates, then what else could be used to prove eligibility?

that is when it does all get mighty complicated, some of it comes down to acknowledgement that the children are the children of the parent (assuming they haven't been adopted by anyone else in the meantime) in the absence of being on a birth cert etc - need some specialist advice  -presume some might used DNA these days but it doesn't sound like there is anyone who would take a test to prove the link (assuming your friend won't ) 

Silvertabby

Flugelhorn said:

Silvertabby said:

Keep_pedalling said:

It’s not really complicated, intestacy rules are quite straight forward. In this case your friend’s bother has a grandchild so she won’t inherit anything even if his wife is dead. 

I doubt if the solicitor will not be able to trace the missing wife, but if she can’t be found they have option in how to handle the estate.

https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-jan-apr-2017/what-happens-if-a-beneficiary-cant-be-found/

Thanks - that link makes interesting reading.

Still not sure about the granddaughter, though.  It's all a bit muddled, but it seems that the brother and the mother of his son weren't together at the time of the birth, ditto the son and the mother of the granddaughter.  If either/both fathers weren't listed on the birth certificates, then what else could be used to prove eligibility?

that is when it does all get mighty complicated, some of it comes down to acknowledgement that the children are the children of the parent (assuming they haven't been adopted by anyone else in the meantime) in the absence of being on a birth cert etc - need some specialist advice  -presume some might used DNA these days but it doesn't sound like there is anyone who would take a test to prove the link (assuming your friend won't ) 

I very much doubt that my friend would volunteer for a DNA test!

Can see this dragging on for some time yet...

Mothman

Silvertabby said:

Can see this dragging on for some time yet...

I wonder how much of the estate will actually be left after the solicitors have taken their pound of flesh

Silvertabby

Mothman said:

Silvertabby said:

Can see this dragging on for some time yet...

I wonder how much of the estate will actually be left after the solicitors have taken their pound of flesh

Exactly.  I keep telling my friend that if her brother had left a Will, she would have been the last person he would have left anything to so she hasn't really lost anything - but she can't let go of the fact that the money originally came from their mother's estate.

Just had a google and seems executors who can't trace beneficiaries can withold disbursement of funds for 12 years just in case they pop up.  Am not going to tell her that!

Spendless

Silvertabby said:

Keep_pedalling said:

It’s not really complicated, intestacy rules are quite straight forward. In this case your friend’s bother has a grandchild so she won’t inherit anything even if his wife is dead. 

I doubt if the solicitor will not be able to trace the missing wife, but if she can’t be found they have option in how to handle the estate.

https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-jan-apr-2017/what-happens-if-a-beneficiary-cant-be-found/

Thanks - that link makes interesting reading.

Still not sure about the granddaughter, though.  It's all a bit muddled, but it seems that the brother and the mother of his son weren't together at the time of the birth, ditto the son and the mother of the granddaughter.  If either/both fathers weren't listed on the birth certificates, then what else could be used to prove eligibility?

I am guessing your friend's brother acknowledged himself as the father, since your friend knows about it and also that the son born of that relationship went on to have a daughter himself. Whether that would be sufficient I've no idea but it's not as though your friend has come across a complete stranger telling her a story she'd no idea about. She knows it's a possibility/lklihood. 

elsien

Does she know her brother is not on the birth certificates or is she second-guessing herself about that as well?
If I were you I’d probably be getting to the stage of just telling her you don’t want talk about it anymore.

Silvertabby

elsien said:

Does she know her brother is not on the birth certificates or is she second-guessing herself about that as well?
If I were you I’d probably be getting to the stage of just telling her you don’t want talk about it anymore.

She really has no idea.  Things had  been strained between her and her brother for some time, and I don't think she even met the mother of her nephew or even the nephew (or his daughter). 

I've got to the stage of telling her that I really don't know, that she must leave it in the hands of the experts (the solicitors) but not to expect an answer any time soon.  Trouble is, since she lost her husband, she has been using me as her on-hand 'expert' for things to do with her RAF widow's pension and other financial things.  RAF pension yes, but anything else I steer her towards the experts.  Or try to.

She gets a bee in her bonnet and won't let go, to the extent of panicking.  When her husband died I did the official notification to RAF pensions (10 hour time difference) and told her as clearly as I could that when the letter arrived it would mention having to assess her claim for benefits.  But not to worry, as she did qualify for 50% of her husband's pension, and that the letter would only be written that way because some people live complicated lives .....

3 am and my phone rang.  I thought I was going to get bad news (who else rings at 3 in the morning!) but it was my friend with her letter, hysterically claiming that the RAF hadn't said that they would pay her a pension, and what would she do without this money if they decided not to....

Marcon

Silvertabby said:

Possibly crystal ball time, but any ideas how long the solicitors will wait before giving up on finding the wife - or is it possible that they will refuse to disburse the funds without proof of her death?  And, if she has died, would the granddaughter still automatically inherit, given that there may not be any documentary proof of her relationship to my friend's brother (ie, father's names on her and her father's birth certificates)?

You say 'may not' - has anyone checked, always assuming the names of the relevant parties are known?

Silvertabby said:

3 am and my phone rang.  I thought I was going to get bad news (who else rings at 3 in the morning!) but it was my friend with her letter, hysterically claiming that the RAF hadn't said that they would pay her a pension, and what would she do without this money if they decided not to....

Time to invest in an answering machine and screen your calls!!