Do I have to instruct a divorce lawyer?

MellyMooCow

Savvy_Sue said:

How old are your children, roughly? You may have said previously, but ... 

I ask, because you may need to go to mediation - or at least, you need to try: if he won't go then that will be noted. 

Mediation is definitely cheaper than going straight to court without agreement, and fighting it all out there ... 

This looks like a useful introduction: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/how-to-separate1/ - there's a page about mediation. 

Another useful site is https://divorce.wikivorce.com/

We have two older children who have both moved out and are very early twenties, then a 13yr old and 14yr old still living at home. 

MellyMooCow

tightauldgit said:

You certainly don't NEED to instruct a solicitor but as suggested it may be worth talking to one. Or at least someone like Citizens Advice just to understand the situation a bit better as you seem to not be too up to speed with it all (no offence intended) None taken. You're right, I have no idea what I'm doing!

You probably should sit down and have a conversation with your partner (provided you feel safe doing so) and see what his thoughts are. But you probably don't want to dump this all on him in one go. If you feel like divorce is inevitable now are you in a position to move out? It might be better to have the 'we need to get divorced and i'm moving out' conversation first  then come back and talk about finances later. 

With regards specifics you really need to look at the assets and debts and obligations in total - if you are married you can't really just say 'the debt is in his name so it's nothing to do with me' it's 50/50. Equally it seems a bit cheeky to say you'll take the car as that's half the debt, conveniently ignoring that you are taking an asset to cover that debt

But he would be keeping the motorbike, which actually cost more than the car!? So we both have a vehicle that needs paying for and the rest is loans/credit cards. Although, it would probably work out cheaper for me not to keep the car as I could go and just get one for half the amount we pay monthly to this one.
He can also keep all the other 'assets' that caused the debt in the first place... the 2k tv, 5k speakers and amp system, 1.5k in consoles.... I don't use or want any of that. It is all 'his' stuff. But if we have to split everything, I might demand it is all sold to pay off debt. But surely it can just begin to get silly if that is the case. Surely we can agree how we split the debt.... Otherwise we would just end up selling everything we own and both have nothing. I would have thought that him taking his debt, me taking my debt and taking a vehicle each... which then adds up to roughly 50/50 of the debt total makes more sense? But I honestly have no idea... hence why I am on here trying to find out.

Equally pensions etc need to be looked at. Of course, what's fair or reasonable is really what both parties can agree to. Also bear in mind that agreeing to something now which is slightly unfair might work out better in the long-run than paying for solicitors to argue it.

Kids and child maintenance is a separate matter again - bear in mind that no matter what you agree on child maintenance, whichever party is the resident parent (the one with the most care) can go to CMS and make a claim at any time. You cannot agree away those obligations. 

With regards solicitors in my experience they do NOT make the process any more amicable or move it forward any faster but it may be unavoidable if you can't co-operate or go through mediation. Since you have kids and envision shared care its certainly worthwhile to try to make things amicable.

I will look into mediation. I am not actually telling him anything until after Christmas/new year. I don't want the kids to have bad memories of Christmas. I will wait and research. I also need to find the courage to actually do it.

MellyMooCow

AliC999 said:

Hello - check out the blog on this site www.mediateuk.co.uk - there is a lot of information about parenting, finances and how to divorce amicably. They offer a free 15 minute chat too. 

The divorce part you can do yourself online. This is separate to the financial and parenting arrangements. Parenting best agreed between yourselves. Consider a drafting your own parenting plan if you like.  Finances you should definitely consider getting a clean break consent order, as without this, no agreement is legally binding and either of you can make a claim against the other in the future, even many years after your divorce. Also remember that under family law, it doesn't matter whose name is on a debt or an asset. The advice above to give a bit of time between letting him know you want to divorce, to discussing the financial arrangements is good advice. It can all be too much in one go. I hope this helps a little. 

Thank you for that link. I will take a look.

I've seen the no fault divorce online. It only just occurred to me that we got married in Cyprus, so I need to look into that now!

I will allow time between telling him and full on discussion. I will do anything I can to make this easier on him and the kids. I feel like I am destroying everyone's lives and I don't want to do that.

I didn't actually know that all debts were equally split, but I do now. I was just trying to be fair and have it so we have our vehicles, me the car him the bike, then we take our own debts as they are roughly equal anyway in terms of cards/loans. I didn't know it had to be done differently. 

MellyMooCow

Scorpio33 said:

Much easier and cheaper to agree it yourself.

The divorce process you can do yourself online (and pay court fees). https://www.gov.uk/divorce/file-for-divorce

The financial side of it is a seperate thing which you usually get after decree nisi (when divorce has been agreed by courts) and decree absolute (decree absolute). You can agree things yourself, but the actual agreement needs to be drawn up by a solicitor for it to be accepted by the courts. https://www.gov.uk/money-property-when-relationship-ends/apply-for-consent-order

The thing to remember is to make it fair for everyone (including any kids).

Much better if you agree on things (as any assets are not taken up by legal fees), depending on your assets.

But include savings, pensions as well as considering earnings, debt etc. You will be going from one house together to servicing two houses, so you will both feel poorer.

Good luck.

I am trying to make everything as fair as possible. I am even happy to just walk away with nothing... he can keep all the furniture, everything. I actually don't care about any of it. I mean, I would love to have the sofa as I chose it and love it, and as I will only be able to afford a two bed place, I will need a sofa to sleep on and it is so big and comfortable. Apart from that.. all the crap tech, he can keep. There is thousands of pounds of tv, speakers, amps, consoles etc.. all on his credit cards I might add, that I never wanted in the first place and could more than happily live without. So he is welcome to it all.

Everything in the house is his really. I merely exist in the house to cook, clean, contribute to bills. I don't get to use any of the 'stuff' and I'm happy on my laptop or reading so although I may sound a little bitter, I don't mean to be. I just think it is all unecassary debt.

TBagpuss

MellyMooCow said:

AliC999 said:

Hello - check out the blog on this site www.mediateuk.co.uk - there is a lot of information about parenting, finances and how to divorce amicably. They offer a free 15 minute chat too. 

The divorce part you can do yourself online. This is separate to the financial and parenting arrangements. Parenting best agreed between yourselves. Consider a drafting your own parenting plan if you like.  Finances you should definitely consider getting a clean break consent order, as without this, no agreement is legally binding and either of you can make a claim against the other in the future, even many years after your divorce. Also remember that under family law, it doesn't matter whose name is on a debt or an asset. The advice above to give a bit of time between letting him know you want to divorce, to discussing the financial arrangements is good advice. It can all be too much in one go. I hope this helps a little. 

Thank you for that link. I will take a look.

I've seen the no fault divorce online. It only just occurred to me that we got married in Cyprus, so I need to look into that now!

I will allow time between telling him and full on discussion. I will do anything I can to make this easier on him and the kids. I feel like I am destroying everyone's lives and I don't want to do that.

I didn't actually know that all debts were equally split, but I do now. I was just trying to be fair and have it so we have our vehicles, me the car him the bike, then we take our own debts as they are roughly equal anyway in terms of cards/loans. I didn't know it had to be done differently. 

Getting married in Cyprus won't be an issue. You will need your original marraige certificte and if it is not in English you will need to bget a proper trnaslation done to provide to the court with the original, but the only problem would be if you don't have the original as getting a duiplicate from Cyprus is likely to be a bit more complicated thangetting one here!

A court can't change the contract between either of you and a third party, so while a court would take into account the debt, they can't move it from one person's name to the other, it would be open to a court to adjust the split of any assets to take into account debt (e.g. if you had savings or a house the court could adjust the split of those to accountfor what debt there was) and while in theory they could order one of you to pay maintenace to the other to cover a share of the debt repayments, it's unlikely. 

So debts are not equally split at all. If either of you was arguing about who should be responsible for the denbt, a key issue is how the debt was built up and who had the benefit of the money being spent. Sofor example, if the debt was a credit card used to pay for a family holidya, or for the wedding, the starting point would be to take it into account to reflect te fact you both benefited. On the other had, if the debt was built up to by audio equaipment he wanted aand will be keeping, then it's likely to be reasonable for him to keep those items and to pay the debt reklated to it. Equally, if you want to keep the car it would be reasonablefor you to take responsibility for the car loan, although ideally, you would get a loan in your own name to clear the current one and then you would no longer have a finacial link to him (but don't take on new debt, or pay off anything that's in his name, until you have reached an agrement and had it drawn up) 

RAS

You really do need to think this through a bit; even if you are happy to "leave everything", the stark fact is that:

It would cost you a lot of money, time and effort just to replace the basics of kitchen equipment, bedding, towels, household equipment. Roughly 4 times as much as 5 years ago based on my recent forays to find budget gear for the foodbank. You don't need the additional debt by force.

So you need to take stuff, even if it is the second best that you can replace over time. And enough to to make a meal and cater for the children if they visit including if possibly some furniture. You also need to start looking for EBay, Freegle etc beds and furniture. 

Re the car, you NEED to find the documentation re the debt. Is it HP, PCP or a loan? Bear in mind that you cannot take an asset that is secured on a loan. It may be possible to return the car without penalty if it's on HP. Or to sell it and pay off the loan. But which is it?

Your ex is going to end up with the goods on which he has the debts. You can argue that since he has the assets, that's fair. You can't expect to have the car and he keeps the loan. It's very unlikely the creditor will, or can, transfer the debt to your name. So you need to plan on that and take advice on the insurance situation.

You need to find somewhere safe to remove essentials including your vital documents and copies of his accounts before you speak to him, as well as any sentimental items. What happens otherwise if he gets difficult when you speak to him and you have to leave urgently?

Speak to your work pension urgently. At the very least ensure that the nominees for your death in service benefit are the children. And ask their advice on the whole situation. 

You may just want to leave but don't let that desire wreck your future for the sake of a little planning.

MalMonroe

Hi, I've been through a divorce which was fairly acrimonious and we had a child. (We get along fine now but it's taken a while). If a mother is the main caregiver, as is usually the case, then they can stay in the marital home with their child/children if they want to. A divorce is something that affects the whole family and if the upheaval for the children can be minimised by them not having to leave their home, so much the better. Unless you intend to leave your children with their dad of course.

Having been through the process I'd say don't try to rush it and do everything at once. As RAS says above, don't agree to walk off and leave everything because you will surely come to regret that as time goes by. You have rights and you should really hang around to ensure that you get everything you're entitled to. 

It would also be a good idea to at least speak to a solicitor - and as others have said you can probably get a free initial session. The website that Savvy Sue recommended, I would also recommend. This one - 

https://divorce.wikivorce.com/

The title appears a bit flippant I think but it really is full of helpful information.

Your solicitor (if you did have one) would communicate with your husband through his own solicitor and wouldn't speak to your husband direct at all. 

What really concerns me is that you say he's going to 'kick off big time' when you tell him. I really do urge you to have a look at the information in the following link from Citizens Advice - they also give contacts and people you can phone for advice. Please do ensure that you are protected from his 'kicking off' if you possibly can. Is there anyone who could come to support you at all?

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/gender-violence/domestic-violence-and-abuse-getting-help/

I wish you all the best and hope everything goes better than expected for you. It's a worrying and very stressful time. Please do take care of yourself and your children. 

tightauldgit

MellyMooCow said:

AliC999 said:

Hello - check out the blog on this site www.mediateuk.co.uk - there is a lot of information about parenting, finances and how to divorce amicably. They offer a free 15 minute chat too. 

The divorce part you can do yourself online. This is separate to the financial and parenting arrangements. Parenting best agreed between yourselves. Consider a drafting your own parenting plan if you like.  Finances you should definitely consider getting a clean break consent order, as without this, no agreement is legally binding and either of you can make a claim against the other in the future, even many years after your divorce. Also remember that under family law, it doesn't matter whose name is on a debt or an asset. The advice above to give a bit of time between letting him know you want to divorce, to discussing the financial arrangements is good advice. It can all be too much in one go. I hope this helps a little. 

Thank you for that link. I will take a look.

I've seen the no fault divorce online. It only just occurred to me that we got married in Cyprus, so I need to look into that now!

I will allow time between telling him and full on discussion. I will do anything I can to make this easier on him and the kids. I feel like I am destroying everyone's lives and I don't want to do that.

I didn't actually know that all debts were equally split, but I do now. I was just trying to be fair and have it so we have our vehicles, me the car him the bike, then we take our own debts as they are roughly equal anyway in terms of cards/loans. I didn't know it had to be done differently. 

That;s why its worth taking some time and actually working things out a little - when you originally posted you said you had no assets and over the course of a few posts you've now got a car, a bike and potentially several thousands pounds of electronics and furniture. What else might be missed? Do you have valuable jewellery? has he got a collection of Star Wars figures in their original boxes?

Also who actually owns all these items, are they on HP? If so they probably can't be sold or transferred. Be super careful of agreeing to something that has no legal standing - if you keep paying the car payments for example, that doesn't make the car yours. That's why you need to get things done legally and sorted out clearly. Things that both parties agreed to now can change two years down the line once you've fallen out about something unrelated, unless its specified in a court order.

 It's not necessarily that the end result is that the debt and assets will be equally split but that's kind of the overall starting point. I'm sure courts hear everyday that one spouse or the other actually incurred all the debt for their stuff and none of it should apply to the other spouse but courts will tend to look at most things as marital assets and marital debts unless it's really clear they aren't. That doesn't mean that everything has to be sold and split - just that the overall end position ends up roughly 50/50. 

It kind of makes sense to say 'keep the telly and the associated loan' if the TV is new but if it's already 2 years old then the value of the asset is going to be much less than the value of the debt potentially. Also is the debt clearly associated with the asset or just general credit card debt if its the latter it's harder to argue that the debt relates specifically to a TV or a console or whatever. 

Don't get too bogged down in the weeds at the minute though. If you are thinking that you are quite happy with X Y Z bits of furniture and the car then that might be the starting point for a settlement that you can flush out with a solicitor or a mediator. You need to have a conversation with your partner about that but as we already said the first step is the divorce conversation. 

Just be careful not to do anything in the short term that might be difficult to reverse later - for example if you leave the house, don't assume you will be able to move back in later. 

SusieT

You have already had a lot of good advice, but one thing you really do need to do is find somewhere safe to start getting documents etc stored - birth certificate, passport, bank stuff, photos - do you have a friend who will help you with it? Otherwise are there SMALL storage units in your area where you can keep things including clothes in case he kicks off and you need to get out in a hurry? You need to plan for the worst and hope it is not that bad, so appearing to be having a clear out now and bagging up clothes for a charity shop, but in reality taking them to your safe place is a good idea. 
Plan well before you tell him, and make sure you have everything in place first.

MellyMooCow

tightauldgit said:

MellyMooCow said:

AliC999 said:

Hello - check out the blog on this site www.mediateuk.co.uk - there is a lot of information about parenting, finances and how to divorce amicably. They offer a free 15 minute chat too. 

The divorce part you can do yourself online. This is separate to the financial and parenting arrangements. Parenting best agreed between yourselves. Consider a drafting your own parenting plan if you like.  Finances you should definitely consider getting a clean break consent order, as without this, no agreement is legally binding and either of you can make a claim against the other in the future, even many years after your divorce. Also remember that under family law, it doesn't matter whose name is on a debt or an asset. The advice above to give a bit of time between letting him know you want to divorce, to discussing the financial arrangements is good advice. It can all be too much in one go. I hope this helps a little. 

Thank you for that link. I will take a look.

I've seen the no fault divorce online. It only just occurred to me that we got married in Cyprus, so I need to look into that now!

I will allow time between telling him and full on discussion. I will do anything I can to make this easier on him and the kids. I feel like I am destroying everyone's lives and I don't want to do that.

I didn't actually know that all debts were equally split, but I do now. I was just trying to be fair and have it so we have our vehicles, me the car him the bike, then we take our own debts as they are roughly equal anyway in terms of cards/loans. I didn't know it had to be done differently. 

That;s why its worth taking some time and actually working things out a little - when you originally posted you said you had no assets and over the course of a few posts you've now got a car, a bike and potentially several thousands pounds of electronics and furniture. What else might be missed? Do you have valuable jewellery? has he got a collection of Star Wars figures in their original boxes?

Also who actually owns all these items, are they on HP? If so they probably can't be sold or transferred. Be super careful of agreeing to something that has no legal standing - if you keep paying the car payments for example, that doesn't make the car yours. That's why you need to get things done legally and sorted out clearly. Things that both parties agreed to now can change two years down the line once you've fallen out about something unrelated, unless its specified in a court order.

 It's not necessarily that the end result is that the debt and assets will be equally split but that's kind of the overall starting point. I'm sure courts hear everyday that one spouse or the other actually incurred all the debt for their stuff and none of it should apply to the other spouse but courts will tend to look at most things as marital assets and marital debts unless it's really clear they aren't. That doesn't mean that everything has to be sold and split - just that the overall end position ends up roughly 50/50. 

It kind of makes sense to say 'keep the telly and the associated loan' if the TV is new but if it's already 2 years old then the value of the asset is going to be much less than the value of the debt potentially. Also is the debt clearly associated with the asset or just general credit card debt if its the latter it's harder to argue that the debt relates specifically to a TV or a console or whatever. 

Don't get too bogged down in the weeds at the minute though. If you are thinking that you are quite happy with X Y Z bits of furniture and the car then that might be the starting point for a settlement that you can flush out with a solicitor or a mediator. You need to have a conversation with your partner about that but as we already said the first step is the divorce conversation. 

Just be careful not to do anything in the short term that might be difficult to reverse later - for example if you leave the house, don't assume you will be able to move back in later. 

I didn't consider any of those to be assets, as they are financed therefore I thought they were classed as liabilities? The car is on finance and the bike is a pcp... we don't own anything outright it is all on finance or a credit card. 

I am definitely not trying to dodge paying for anything. I only said I would take the car as it is all in his name, but I wanted to show that I am happy to share all the debt in a way that benefits everyone.