WILL Missing - Solicitor Closed Down

Fermion

I would be grateful for some advice.
My wife's Mother (96 with severe dementia) has only a few days to live and we have been checking through her papers.
She wrote her Will in 1997 via Solicitors (Ray, Nixon, Brown - Bletchley) and this was held by them. We last checked up it was still held by them in 2006. They had changed their name to Richard, Nixon, Austin, Carnley Solicitors. They sent a (uncertified) copy through the post. We created a Will Codicil for her when she moved house in 2006 and we hold the original.
I checked with the Solicitors Regulatory Authority(SRA) a few days ago and it appears that Richard, Nixon, Austin, Carnley Solicitors became Austin Ray Solicitors who were were acquired by Kingly Solicitors in 2020, however the latter were closed down by the SRA intervention Board recently for fraudulent activity and all documents moved by the SRA to the SRA archive in Coventry. They believe that the original Will may be in the Archive
The SRA have advised us to complete a formal  Intervention archives document request  form when my Mother-in-Law dies, however they say that if found it may take up to 16 weeks to recover. (The normal SLA is 12 weeks but Kingly have a lot of documents!)
My wife and her sister and brother will be the nominated Executors and beneficiaries on death.
The problem we have is that it seems many financial institutions will only accept formally certified copies of the a Will. (e.g. RBS/Nat West  confirmed they won't open an Executor Account without one)
So it looks as though we will have to wait at least 16 weeks to recover the original Will but in the meantime fund all outstanding bills (Funeral, Council Tax, Utilities, Funeral etc) as Executor expenses.
Can anyone see any way around this problem?
Do all financial institutions take the same stance as RBS/Nat West

For info the estate will have a valuation  less than £325K comprising 50% of a property (via 50% Tenants in Common) 

p00hsticks

Fermion said:

So it looks as though we will have to wait at least 16 weeks to recover the original Will but in the meantime fund all outstanding bills (Funeral, Council Tax, Utilities, Funeral etc) as Executor expenses.

If you main concern is funding billls in the interim then I think you are probably worrying unecessarily

Funeral - assuming that the deceased has sufficient funds in an account,  banks will release money for a funeral by issuing a cheque payable directly to the Funeral Director on sight of their invoice.

Council tax - Assuming we are talking England or Wales, if the property occupied by the deceased is left empty as a result of the death, then there is an exemption (Class F I think) such no that no council tax is payable until six months after probate is granted. The local authority will be automatically made aware of the death if the Tell Us Once service is used (the registrar will provide a link for this servce at the time the death is registered). (If the property is left occupied, then obviously the remaining occupier becomes liable for the council tax). 

Utilities - all the major utility and other companies (banks, insurance companies, pension companies etc) have dedicated bereavement departments containing personnel specifically trained to deal with the situation sympathetically. Assuming that the house will be empty and is to be sold (if not, as before the remaining occupants would take over the billls) then companies are generally quite prepared to let any charges build up and only get settled when the property is sold, assuming that this is done in a reasonable timescale.

You may also find that for for realtively small amounts in banks and savings accounts the institutions will be able to release the funds without probate being granted, possibly on production of a declaration by the beneficiaries to confimr that they are entitled to the money (a solicotor can provide and authorise such documents for a small fee). 

As discussed from time to time on this board, there is rarely a need for a dedicated executors account these days, and many banks don't even offer them - the important thing is to keep estate funds separate and to keep a record of them, and this can be done as simply via a personal account set up in the executors name (these days many people already have mutiple accounts anyway and may already have one they can use).A Nat West executor acconut starts off as a personal account anyhow - if you have an existing account with them you can open a new one online in minutes, and then get it converted into an executors account once probate has been obtained if you feel you need to (in my experience the only time you may be asked if you have one is to receive funds form the sale of the house - some solicitors are apparently wary about paying such funds into anything other than an executors account).

The one thing you do need to address immediately, especially in this current cold weather, is to ensure that the property is properly insured and that all the required steps are being taken to meet the insurers requirements - you will need to let any existing unsurer know that the builiding is unoccupied. I found that in those circumstances they woudl continue to honour the insurance for the rest of the year but they did impose additional conditions and exclusions.

<Edit - Apologies, I've just realised that you've said thst the property is only 50% owned as a tenant in common - in those circumstances I belevie that the person owning the other 50% may become liable for the council tax and utilitiy bills (even if they are not living in the property) and so the exemption may not apply, although you may still be able to let the utility bills be put on hold until the sale of the property if this is the intention.

Keep_pedalling

Nat West may not allow you to open a executors account but it does not mean they (or any other bank) will not pay out what is held in accounts before you obtain probate. It is not strictly necessary to open an executors account to handle the estate assets.

Who owns the other 50% of the house? If someone else lives there they are no responsible for CT and utilities.

user1977

As above, creditors will wait - because in many cases they have no choice (not much point in them starting court action against the estate if the estate can't pay rather than won't pay...).

Marcon

Fermion said:

I would be grateful for some advice.
My wife's Mother (96 with severe dementia) has only a few days to live and we have been checking through her papers.
She wrote her Will in 1997 via Solicitors (Ray, Nixon, Brown - Bletchley) and this was held by them. We last checked up it was still held by them in 2006. They had changed their name to Richard, Nixon, Austin, Carnley Solicitors. They sent a (uncertified) copy through the post. We created a Will Codicil for her when she moved house in 2006 and we hold the original.
I checked with the Solicitors Regulatory Authority(SRA) a few days ago and it appears that Richard, Nixon, Austin, Carnley Solicitors became Austin Ray Solicitors who were were acquired by Kingly Solicitors in 2020, however the latter were closed down by the SRA intervention Board recently for fraudulent activity and all documents moved by the SRA to the SRA archive in Coventry. They believe that the original Will may be in the Archive
The SRA have advised us to complete a formal  Intervention archives document request  form when my Mother-in-Law dies, however they say that if found it may take up to 16 weeks to recover. (The normal SLA is 12 weeks but Kingly have a lot of documents!)
My wife and her sister and brother will be the nominated Executors and beneficiaries on death.
The problem we have is that it seems many financial institutions will only accept formally certified copies of the a Will. (e.g. RBS/Nat West  confirmed they won't open an Executor Account without one)
So it looks as though we will have to wait at least 16 weeks to recover the original Will but in the meantime fund all outstanding bills (Funeral, Council Tax, Utilities, Funeral etc) as Executor expenses.
Can anyone see any way around this problem?
Do all financial institutions take the same stance as RBS/Nat West

For info the estate will have a valuation  less than £325K comprising 50% of a property (via 50% Tenants in Common) 

It is common for an estate to take many months to wind up, particularly if the executors have trouble locating the will in the first place(!), and then trying to work out where both the assets and the creditors are. You may have to wait some months to receive the will, but that doesn't stop your wife (or whoever the executor/s are) starting the preliminary work in readiness for when the will shows up.

If you identify creditors, one of the executors simply needs to explain the situation to them and confirm that the executors will be in touch again either once probate has been granted, or with an update by (say) 30 June 2023. That way creditors know what to expect and with luck won't keep chasing for any unpaid bills.

As someone has already said, it's usual for banks to release payment for the funeral either directly to the funeral director, or on sight of the funeral director's invoice.

msb1234

Firstly, you need to realise this is going to take many months to deal with, so rushing to find wills / documents etc before the person concerned has even died seems a bit crass. 

Depending on who owns the remaining 50% of the property, all ongoing bills may well be able to be put on hold until the house is sold - if indeed it is actually sold. My mums property is in this situation and we can’t currently sell, all services know this and are happy to wait for their money.

Keep_pedalling

msb1234 said:

Firstly, you need to realise this is going to take many months to deal with, so rushing to find wills / documents etc before the person concerned has even died seems a bit crass. 

I would say the OP is being practical not crass. 

Flugelhorn

Keep_pedalling said:

msb1234 said:

Firstly, you need to realise this is going to take many months to deal with, so rushing to find wills / documents etc before the person concerned has even died seems a bit crass. 

I would say the OP is being practical not crass. 

Practical and a bit of distraction at such a time - I remember when mother was being admitted to hospital for the last time, OH found her will in a box that we were sorting - it was relief to know where it was at that time.

Marcon

msb1234 said:

Firstly, you need to realise this is going to take many months to deal with, so rushing to find wills / documents etc before the person concerned has even died seems a bit crass. 

Given the will is likely to take many weeks to surface, it looks like sensible forward planning. If someone of 96 with severe dementia is expected to have only a few days of life left, describing OP's actions as 'showing no intelligence or sensitivity' (the dictionary definition of crass) seems unfair and unreasonable.

Savvy_Sue

Well if that's crass ... one of the things mentioned to us by someone who knows they have a terminal diagnosis is their grave plot. Their spouse died a couple of years ago and was cremated: the original plan was to scatter the ashes over this plot, but that hadn't happened before getting the diagnosis, and the survivor didn't like the thought of scattering the ashes and then having them disturbed quite quickly. 

So we've been exploring the possibilities: found the paperwork, contacted the cemetery, submitted all the paperwork to get it transferred to a new 'owner', given that the current one was buried in it 40+ years ago. The new almost-owners have been on a visit too, and we know that we can put ashes in the grave when it's re-opened, and add several more sets at a later date, so that's all good to know. 

And I find that immensely practical and it's reassuring for the person who knows they're dying: fortunately the arrangements have been well known for some time so we've been able to do this. 

Alongside locating the will (which I agree is practical), is there widespread knowledge / agreement about what kind of funeral m-i-l would want? 

TBagpuss

msb1234 said:

Firstly, you need to realise this is going to take many months to deal with, so rushing to find wills / documents etc before the person concerned has even died seems a bit crass. 

Depending on who owns the remaining 50% of the property, all ongoing bills may well be able to be put on hold until the house is sold - if indeed it is actually sold. My mums property is in this situation and we can’t currently sell, all services know this and are happy to wait for their money.

It's not crass, it's practical to start to think aboutthese things.
And do bear in mind that people grieve in different ways - some people can't face dealing with practical issues othes may find doing so helpful as displacement / distraction activitiy or feel that they can't grieve properly until they they have dealt with some of the paractical issues. It's unkind, and unhelpful, to criticise someone for the way they are ealing with a stressful situation just becaue it may be different from the way you would do so. 

OP, as others have said, companies know that probate takes time and will wait for payment. Also, most banks will allow you to close an account and withdraw the funds as long as it's below a certain levels - varies from bank to bank but often up to about £10,000 

You can also normally arrange to have the funeral costs paid directly from a bank account - check with the bank what they need, i.e. whether a copy of the invoice is enough, or if it needs to be addressed to them. This is worth doing as most funeral directors will offer a discount for prompt payment