Chimney breasts and lounge wall removed without plan/docs

pieroabcd

LHW99 said:

Is that area of the roof still flat or is it beginning to curve?

it's flat

FreeBear

pieroabcd said: both chimney breasts were removed, at the ground floor and at the first floor.
The chimney is (unfortunately) still there. Never been my passion.
Maybe it's not a coincidence that my damp meter measured 47% humidity in the wall between the 2 main bedrooms, that is a very unusual place to find humidity.

Throw that darned damp meter in the bin. It is no good for measuring moisture levels in anything other than untreated wood. Stuck in to a wall, any number of things will throw the readings out, and it isn't calibrated for use on common building materials (timber excluded).

In the right hands, used with a modicum of caution, relative readings can be used to identify areas of a wall that might warrant a closer inspection.

As for the chimney - Have a look in the loft to see if there is evidence of an RSJ providing support. Anything less, and you need to reconsider your options. There will be several tonnes of brickwork above the bedrooms, and you don't want it crashing through the roof in the middle of the night.

Mutton_Geoff

Look for gallows brackets or similar support in the loft as FB says. It's cheaper to do it this way as it saves reroofing but I think it looks horrible. Might have been neccesary if neighbours chimney shared in the stack.

ThisIsWeird

pieroabcd said:

The surveyor told me that it's better to make sure that the works that the sellers did (they removed the chimney breasts and the lounge wall) were done with a sound engineering plan and with proper paperwork. Accoridng to him the chimney stack may not have enough support and could potentially risk to collapse. That is possible. Generally unlikely (it doesn't happen often), but you certainly would want to know it's been done properly, before or after purchase.

The sellers said that those works were done before they bought the house, from the previous owner. They say it was done 12 years ago, and that this was before they bought the place? In which case there's a good chance you'll find the house selling 'particulars' on historic Zoopla from when the current owners bought it less than 12 years ago. If you manage to find the old sales partics, see if the room was open-planned at that point. If it wasn't, then the current owner is fibbing. And if they have been fibbing, then you should suspect the worst.

What would the implications be for me as a buyer? And also as a seller in the future, too.

Could the Council come after me? Council Building Control will only investigate/take action if (a) they are told about it and (b) have good reason to suspect it's dangerous. So, whilst it's possible, it's extremely unlikely they'll have any/much interest. Implications for you? These will be exactly as you currently find - as a buyer, you will want proof that it's safe, and as a seller, your buyer will likely want the same. So if you are proceeding with this house, it should be something to get sorted once and for all - and also to prevent the extremely unlikely scenario that it comes crashing down.

I understand that here in the UK ithe burden of "soundness" is entirely on the buyer, but i'll never understand why the seller basically can get away nearly with everything. Caveat Emperor (well sic)? Yes and no. Yes if you don't do anything about it, and no if you do. Yes, the major part of the resposibility when buying a property falls on the 'buyer', but they do the hard work through others, the professionals. A more common example - that many folk on here have fallen foul of - is to check that the actual property boundaries are correct according to the deeds. Many (most?) folk assume their solicitor has done this! Lol! (cough, that included me until I read threads on here). So, if you do nothing about this, then - yes - the seller has 'got away with it'. If you insist on it being checked out, the seller will not have got away with it. (But they could always tell you to 'get away' instead...)

If I bought it, would it be possible to have an engineer recertify the works that don't have any docs? Yes, of course. All you will want is to know that the work is safe, and a Structural Engineer will soon determine this for you, and a builder put it right if needed. You keep a note of all this - the SE report and the builder's bill - and that's your, and your future buyer's, security taken care of. However, why wait until it's bought? You suggest that sellers 'get away with nearly everything', but that's only if their buyers allow them to. Of course, you cannot force the seller to have this checked out - they can tell you where to go - but there must surely be a mid-point you can reach with them? I presume, in the current climate, they are as keen to sell as you are to buy? So perhaps agree a 50:50 split on the cost of an SE carrying out a visit? This cannot amount to much - a few £undred? The SE should be tasked to determine whether the removed wall contributed to the house's structural strength, and - if it did - whether suitable beams and stuff have been put in its place, (this might involve some small cosmetic damage to expose what is hopefully the beam if one is needed), and also to determine whether the remaining chimney stack has been correctly supported. Armed with the report, and a builder's estimate if needed, you proceed. If the seller just shrugs and says, "Look, pal, it ain't fallen down yet - I ain't doing nuffink about this", then it's up to you whether to proceed at the currently-agreed price, proceed after knocking off a £ouple of £rand in case work is required, or even to pull out. If you end up not buying the house, the seller can also make use of the SE's report for future buyers - good or bad.

macman

pieroabcd said:

Uhm, it seems that the removal of chimney breasts is always subject to plannig permissions, in which case the Councill will know?
On the other hand stirring a hornet's nest if it wasn't done with permission...
But on the other other hand for the for the purchase of my lifetime property...

https://www.direct-fireplaces.com/resources/should-you-remove-your-chimney-breast/ says that chimney breasts can be load bearing. 

Unless it's a listed building, PP is not required , as it's internal work. Building Control approval however, most definitely is. 

Mutton_Geoff

ThisIsWeird said:

Caveat Emperor

Is that latin for "customer is king" 

ThisIsWeird

Mutton_Geoff said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Caveat Emperor

Is that latin for "customer is king" 

I wish I could blame predictive text...

MikeJXE

pieroabcd said:

user1977 said:

pieroabcd said:

user1977 said:

How long ago were the works done?

12 years ago

Well, no chance of the council being interested in enforcement after this length of time. And I suppose you have the reassurance that nothing adverse has (visibly) happened so far. I would ask your surveyor what they recommend if you assume nobody can find consents from the time.

Yes, everything looks fine. 
I've asked the surveyor.

There are surveyors and there are surveyors IMO you need a structural engineer 

pieroabcd

MikeJXE said:

pieroabcd said:

user1977 said:

pieroabcd said:

user1977 said:

How long ago were the works done?

12 years ago

Well, no chance of the council being interested in enforcement after this length of time. And I suppose you have the reassurance that nothing adverse has (visibly) happened so far. I would ask your surveyor what they recommend if you assume nobody can find consents from the time.

Yes, everything looks fine. 
I've asked the surveyor.

There are surveyors and there are surveyors IMO you need a structural engineer 

Yes, I'm trying to convince them to accept a SE survey and share the cost

pieroabcd

uhm, they are not happy with having a SE engineer doing a survey