PCN for a misleading parking ticket sign

Coupon-mad

Yes - please post a photo of the claim form page, but REDACT 

- your name & address & QR Code

- your VRM

- the Claim number (top right)

- the Password (lower right)

palegreenghost

Is it just this page?

Le_Kirk

That is the correct page. 

Coupon-mad

palegreenghost said:

Just read the SECOND post of the NEWBIES thread (we will not link it; see my signature for how to hop there in a nanosecond).

Read the SECOND POST OF IT ONLY.

Then do the AOS (explained there with a walkthrough pictorial guide) then use the Template Defence and draft your facts, which slot into paragraph 3.

You will never pay, no CCJ is risked and you also get a Mediation call early on where you could make a low offer. All very easy and a useful experience.

SIP don't usually discontinue so expect a hearing in the end. Here's a completed case where the OP lost but SIP only got the £100, not the added £60:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81427979/#Comment_81427979

Unusually, the OP wasn't allowed an in-person hearing, as Manchester court is part of a pilot scheme for paper hearings. YOU DO NOT WANT THAT!

However that judgment is useful and comes from a respected judge. Later on at WS & evidence stage, you should use this judgment as an exhibit to show that ParkingEye v Somerfield is still good law (unaffected by ParkingEye v Beavis). But that comes later.

palegreenghost

Thanks I'll do that, I do have a few more questions. 

Once I have completed the AOS, how long will I have to draft my defence? Once my defence is drafted and submitted roughly how long does it take to reach the hearing stage?

My defence will centre around the quoted posts below but to summarise: I researched somewhere to park and saw that it was £5 for 12 hours. On the date of my visit, I parked up in the evening, put £5 into the machine and it dispensed a ticket which I displayed in my car, at no point were there any notices or signs to say that the tariff had changed significantly.

I subsequently became aware of changes after the fact. Not only had the 12 hour stay price increased by 50p but the shorter stay option of 6 hours for £4 had been completely removed, had it not been removed I would've still had a valid ticket for stay. 

Should I mention that someone else was with me at the time and they also didn't see the changes to the tariffs on the sign and is certain that they did not display any extra signs informing me of the changes? Would this help my defence?

As I see it they're switching up tariffs significantly and without warning to confuse people so that they can hand out these dodgy charges. 

(I'll use the proper language when I come to write my defence, "the defendant" etc and make sure to include all the dates and times, I'm just seeing if I'm barking up the right tree in terms of a defence) 

Coupon-mad said:

palegreenghost said:

Coupon-mad said:

Did you pay at a machine? Presumably the machine gave you the impression you could pay a fiver?  How did you pay?

I paid at the machine. I entered the car reg, put £5 in coins into the machine and pushed the button to print the ticket off, then displayed it in my car. 

It's odd because, my friend and I only decided that we were going to Birmingham on the 4/11/22 so any planning on where to park would've happened after that date which was supposedly a few days after they increased the tariff, I remember checking the parking prices online and everything pointed to it being £5 for 12 hours. I specifically chose somewhere with an extended stay so I wouldn't have to worry about being late back to the car and getting a ticket ironically.

Now you are talking. Not your fault, is it?!

You relied on the contract advertised online and saw no prominent extra signs (required by the IPC CoP) intended to alert drivers of a significant change in terms or tariff. They could have put bright 'WARNING - TARIFF HAS CHANGED' stickers on the machine, extra signs up but they didn't. Quietly changing a digit on existing signs is not sufficient notice of a fundamental tariff change like this. Nothing alerted you to the recent change.

Coupon-mad

Cases take about ten months to reach a hearing.

You already know your deadline for defence (explained in your claim form) and it will be reminded with a brief message when you do the AOS.

Yes, what you say can be your paragraph 3.

palegreenghost

I've used bold text and parenthesis for my comments/queries that I won't include in the submitted defence. 

This is what I've come up with for paragraph 3.

(I'm not actually sure of the date that I looked online at the prices EDIT: it could have been 4/11/2022) The Defendant looked online to research a place to park for a visit that would take place on 2/12/2022. According to a few websites, they advertised that the Essex Street car park charged £5 for 12 hours or £4 for 6 hours which would comfortably cover the time required for the visit. 

(I assume that the websites that advertised the tariffs of the car park I used hadn’t updated to reflect the new changes on 01/11/2022. Will this be a problem for me, seeing as these websites aren’t operated by the parking company in question?)

On 2/12/2022, the Defendant and the Defendant’s friend/passenger (not sure how to word this) parked in a spot at the Essex Street car park and paid £5 for a ticket at 15:31 which was then displayed in the Defendant’s car window. It was dark at the time and the visibility near the ticket machine and parking spot was poor, the Defendant returned later that evening and left the car park at 22:22. 

The Defendant wasn’t aware that the tariff had changed significantly on 01/11/2022. The 12 hour parking option had increased by 50 pence to £5.50, and the 6 hour option for £4 had been completely removed. Had this option still been in place the ticket would have been valid despite being short by 50 pence. The Defendant and the Defendant’s friend(?) did not see any signs to inform them that the tariff had significantly changed that month. Extra prominent signs informing drivers of significant changes to tariffs are required by the IPC CoP.

(Should I include this?) “Changes in Operator’s Terms and Conditions: Where there is any change to any pre-existing terms and conditions that would not be immediately apparent to a person visiting the Car Park and which materially affects the Motorist the Operator should place additional (temporary) notices at the entrance making it clear that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular visitors who may be familiar with the old terms do not inadvertently incur Parking Charges. Notices should be in addition to the signage ordinarily required and left in place for an appropriate period”.

The IPC does not define "appropriate period". However, it could be argued that both their rival ATA and the DLUHC incoming PPCoP state that an appropriate period should be no less than 4 months.

“The PPCoP guidance states: 3.4 Material change – notices

Where there is any material change to any pre-existing terms and conditions that would not be immediately apparent to a driver entering controlled land that is or has been open for public parking, the parking operator must place additional (temporary) notices at the site entrance for a period of not less than 4 months from the date of the change making it clear that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular visitors who might be familiar with the old terms do not inadvertently incur parking charges”.

“The BPA CoP states: 19.10 Where there is any material change to any pre-existing terms and conditions that would not be immediately apparent to a motorist entering controlled land that is or has been open for public parking, you must place additional (temporary) notices at the site entrance for a period of not less than 4 months from the date of the change making it clear that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular visitors who might be familiar with the old terms do not inadvertently incur parking charges”. 

(If there's anything else I'm missing or if I need to elaborate on something else, please let me know and thanks again)

Coupon-mad

The Joint Code isn't the DLUHC's. It's the BPA and IPC's Joint Code, so clearly the IPC does think 4 months is the minimum. 

(Should I include this?) “Changes in Operator’s Terms and Conditions:

Yes.

palegreenghost

I just remembered that SIP Legal (the name used in the email address) provided me with photos from the day that they updated signs with the changes to the tariff, and there's no additional notices to show that there's been any changes.

Here's what I have for my paragraph 3 and beyond, please let me know if there are any changes I should make. Thanks!

3. The Defendant looked online to research a place to park for a visit that would take place on 2/12/2022. According to a few websites, they advertised that the Essex Street car park charged £5 for 12 hours or £4 for 6 hours which would comfortably cover the time required for the visit. 

4. On 2/12/2022, the Defendant and the Defendant’s friend/passenger parked in a spot at the Essex Street car park and paid £5 for a ticket at 15:31 which was then displayed in the Defendant’s car window. It was dark at the time and the visibility near the ticket machine and parking spot was poor, the Defendant returned later that evening and left the car park at 22:22. 

5. The Defendant wasn’t aware that the tariff had changed significantly. After the parking charge had been issued, the Defendant later discovered that the 12 hour parking option had increased by 50 pence to £5.50, and the 6 hour option for £4 had been completely removed. Had this option still been in place the ticket would have been valid despite being short by 50 pence. The Defendant and the Defendant’s friend/passenger did not see any signs to inform them that the tariff had significantly changed that month. Extra prominent signs informing drivers of significant changes to tariffs are required by the IPC CoP.

6. The private parking sector single Code of Practice states: “3.4 Material change – notices

Where there is any material change to any pre-existing terms and conditions that would not be immediately apparent to a driver entering controlled land that is or has been open for public parking, the parking operator must place additional (temporary) notices at the site entrance for a period of not less than 4 months from the date of the change making it clear that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular visitors who might be familiar with the old terms do not inadvertently incur parking charges”.

7. Photographs of the updated signs that were provided to the Defendant by SIP Legal do not show any additional notices.

Coupon-mad

I wouldn't help them with this exact date:

"had changed significantly on 01/11/2022"