Heat Loss in UK Homes - World Beating?

Qyburn

Not directly related to insulation and heat loss but I worked on building controls in the '80s retrofitting supervisory controls to add weather compensation and optimised start/stop as well as more sophisticated timetabling. This was all for commercial and institutional buildings, but everyone took it as read that these functions would trickle down to the domestic market.

However what actually happened was the bottom absolutely dropped out of the energy saving market at the end of the '80s or maybe early '90s. Companies working on energy saving went out of business, and I saw buildings that used one of our controller strip it out in favour of plain thermostat and time clock during refurbishment, as the energy savings wouldn't pay for anything more sophisticated.

Even some energy saving laws were repealed, like the limit on heating for commercial premises.

Effectively we have lost around 30 years of energy saving development. I'm not sure even now whether the likes of Hive, Evohome etc actually have optimised start or weather compensation, hopefully they do.

[Deleted User]

Qyburn said:

Not directly related to insulation and heat loss but I worked on building controls in the '80s retrofitting supervisory controls to add weather compensation and optimised start/stop as well as more sophisticated timetabling. This was all for commercial and institutional buildings, but everyone took it as read that these functions would trickle down to the domestic market.

However what actually happened was the bottom absolutely dropped out of the energy saving market at the end of the '80s or maybe early '90s. Companies working on energy saving went out of business, and I saw buildings that used one of our controller strip it out in favour of plain thermostat and time clock during refurbishment, as the energy savings wouldn't pay for anything more sophisticated.

Even some energy saving laws were repealed, like the limit on heating for commercial premises.

Effectively we have lost around 30 years of energy saving development. I'm not sure even now whether the likes of Hive, Evohome etc actually have optimised start or weather compensation, hopefully they do.

My experience of Evohome over 5 years was that I was unlikely ever to recover the £1800 investment. Comfort improved in some rooms but, overall, the energy reduction was minimal. When I had an EPC prior to sale, Evohome was treated as a dual-zoned home with standard TRVs because Honeywell had elected (at that time) not to make its system available to the BRE for independent testing.

I currently have 2 Tado smart thermostats for convenience reasons only. Each month during the summer, Tado sends me a message saying that I have saved 100% on my heating costs with the potential to save 50% more! There is a reason why smart heating controls are not a new build requirement.

Sea_Shell

macman said:

It's the penalty we are still paying for being  the 'cradle of the Industrial Revolution'. Much of our housing stock was built in the late 19th century/early 20th in the Victorian and Edwardian eras, with the rapid growth of London and other industrial cities. They were well constructed in terms of longevity, but insulation was simply not a consideration. Neither cavity walls not double glazing had been invented. You can retrofit d/g, but you can't economically insulate single-skin masonry walls. 
Such properties will never be brought up to current standards.

I wondered this the other day.

Does any other country (European or otherwise) have the row and rows of back to back Victorian terraces that we have in nearly every large town or city in the UK.

Is it a uniquely British thing?    And very much a product (symptom) of that era?


What's the equivalent in other countries?     Did they not copy us?    What did they do instead?

jacko220

Sea_Shell said:

macman said:

It's the penalty we are still paying for being  the 'cradle of the Industrial Revolution'. Much of our housing stock was built in the late 19th century/early 20th in the Victorian and Edwardian eras, with the rapid growth of London and other industrial cities. They were well constructed in terms of longevity, but insulation was simply not a consideration. Neither cavity walls not double glazing had been invented. You can retrofit d/g, but you can't economically insulate single-skin masonry walls. 
Such properties will never be brought up to current standards.

I wondered this the other day.

Does any other country (European or otherwise) have the row and rows of back to back Victorian terraces that we have in nearly every large town or city in the UK.

Is it a uniquely British thing?    And very much a product (symptom) of that era?


What's the equivalent in other countries?     Did they not copy us?    What did they do instead?

I am afraid that it is a penchant of our king, he has never liked "carbuncles" much preferring "Poundland Manors". He along with Rod Hackney an Architect who wanted to upgrade Victorian houses in the late 70's and early 80's such that he was called by the Architectural Press Saint Rod. 

I am afraid that everyone wants a 1930's detached house still having the Green Belt, nearly all the Brownfield sites have disappeared.

I actually subscribed to Netflix this morning and am watching The Crown Series 3, think we went wrong in 1970 by electing Grocer apparently Mr Wilson's White Heat of Technology was discarded by the British Public.

That is my opinion would love to discuss this on here, before I resume jokes about Christmas episodes of Comedy programmes.

Apodemus

Sea_Shell said:

macman said:

It's the penalty we are still paying for being  the 'cradle of the Industrial Revolution'. Much of our housing stock was built in the late 19th century/early 20th in the Victorian and Edwardian eras, with the rapid growth of London and other industrial cities. They were well constructed in terms of longevity, but insulation was simply not a consideration. Neither cavity walls not double glazing had been invented. You can retrofit d/g, but you can't economically insulate single-skin masonry walls. 
Such properties will never be brought up to current standards.

I wondered this the other day.

Does any other country (European or otherwise) have the row and rows of back to back Victorian terraces that we have in nearly every large town or city in the UK.

Is it a uniquely British thing?    And very much a product (symptom) of that era?


What's the equivalent in other countries?     Did they not copy us?    What did they do instead?

I would go further and suggest that these back to back terraces are a uniquely English thing (possibly only in the Midlands?).  For whatever reason, Scotland tended to build flatted tenements to meet the needs of workers for industrial expansion, rather than the rows of brick terraces found in England.  In semi-urban or rural areas, it was not uncommon for these tenements to be only two-storeys, sometimes with an outside stair.  

[Deleted User]

Apodemus said:

Sea_Shell said:

macman said:

It's the penalty we are still paying for being  the 'cradle of the Industrial Revolution'. Much of our housing stock was built in the late 19th century/early 20th in the Victorian and Edwardian eras, with the rapid growth of London and other industrial cities. They were well constructed in terms of longevity, but insulation was simply not a consideration. Neither cavity walls not double glazing had been invented. You can retrofit d/g, but you can't economically insulate single-skin masonry walls. 
Such properties will never be brought up to current standards.

I wondered this the other day.

Does any other country (European or otherwise) have the row and rows of back to back Victorian terraces that we have in nearly every large town or city in the UK.

Is it a uniquely British thing?    And very much a product (symptom) of that era?


What's the equivalent in other countries?     Did they not copy us?    What did they do instead?

I would go further and suggest that these back to back terraces are a uniquely English thing (possibly only in the Midlands?).  For whatever reason, Scotland tended to build flatted tenements to meet the needs of workers for industrial expansion, rather than the rows of brick terraces found in England.  In semi-urban or rural areas, it was not uncommon for these tenements to be only two-storeys, sometimes with an outside stair.  

One has to wonder how many of these properties are heat pump suitable (not withstanding the lack of insulation)?

Mstty

[Deleted User] said:

Apodemus said:

Sea_Shell said:

macman said:

It's the penalty we are still paying for being  the 'cradle of the Industrial Revolution'. Much of our housing stock was built in the late 19th century/early 20th in the Victorian and Edwardian eras, with the rapid growth of London and other industrial cities. They were well constructed in terms of longevity, but insulation was simply not a consideration. Neither cavity walls not double glazing had been invented. You can retrofit d/g, but you can't economically insulate single-skin masonry walls. 
Such properties will never be brought up to current standards.

I wondered this the other day.

Does any other country (European or otherwise) have the row and rows of back to back Victorian terraces that we have in nearly every large town or city in the UK.

Is it a uniquely British thing?    And very much a product (symptom) of that era?


What's the equivalent in other countries?     Did they not copy us?    What did they do instead?

I would go further and suggest that these back to back terraces are a uniquely English thing (possibly only in the Midlands?).  For whatever reason, Scotland tended to build flatted tenements to meet the needs of workers for industrial expansion, rather than the rows of brick terraces found in England.  In semi-urban or rural areas, it was not uncommon for these tenements to be only two-storeys, sometimes with an outside stair.  

One has to wonder how many of these properties are heat pump suitable (not withstanding the lack of insulation)?

As suitable as gas as it will be the same heat loss whether gas or electric heated surely?

The only differential is cost and with some heatpumps struggling to deliver a ratio of 1kwh in to 3kwh out for the whole year gas is just winning with the 10.3p to 35p difference.

I know our house would be cheaper to heat with gas (just as you have to take into account no standing charge for gas with ASHP)

Apodemus

Mstty said:

Dolor said:

Apodemus said:

Sea_Shell said:

macman said:

It's the penalty we are still paying for being  the 'cradle of the Industrial Revolution'. Much of our housing stock was built in the late 19th century/early 20th in the Victorian and Edwardian eras, with the rapid growth of London and other industrial cities. They were well constructed in terms of longevity, but insulation was simply not a consideration. Neither cavity walls not double glazing had been invented. You can retrofit d/g, but you can't economically insulate single-skin masonry walls. 
Such properties will never be brought up to current standards.

I wondered this the other day.

Does any other country (European or otherwise) have the row and rows of back to back Victorian terraces that we have in nearly every large town or city in the UK.

Is it a uniquely British thing?    And very much a product (symptom) of that era?


What's the equivalent in other countries?     Did they not copy us?    What did they do instead?

I would go further and suggest that these back to back terraces are a uniquely English thing (possibly only in the Midlands?).  For whatever reason, Scotland tended to build flatted tenements to meet the needs of workers for industrial expansion, rather than the rows of brick terraces found in England.  In semi-urban or rural areas, it was not uncommon for these tenements to be only two-storeys, sometimes with an outside stair.  

One has to wonder how many of these properties are heat pump suitable (not withstanding the lack of insulation)?

As suitable as gas as it will be the same heat loss whether gas or electric heated surely?

Surely the main issue is getting enough radiator surface to meet the heat requirements of the rooms. It's not gas versus electricity but absolute heat output per room that is the limitting factor. Cost aside, a direct electric heater might adequately heat each room, while a heat pump would need really big radiators to meet the same heat output.

 I can't speak for the back-to-back terraces, but Scottish sandstone tenement buildings can be retro-insulated to modern standards... at a cost.

Mstty

Apodemus said:

Mstty said:

Dolor said:

Apodemus said:

Sea_Shell said:

macman said:

It's the penalty we are still paying for being  the 'cradle of the Industrial Revolution'. Much of our housing stock was built in the late 19th century/early 20th in the Victorian and Edwardian eras, with the rapid growth of London and other industrial cities. They were well constructed in terms of longevity, but insulation was simply not a consideration. Neither cavity walls not double glazing had been invented. You can retrofit d/g, but you can't economically insulate single-skin masonry walls. 
Such properties will never be brought up to current standards.

I wondered this the other day.

Does any other country (European or otherwise) have the row and rows of back to back Victorian terraces that we have in nearly every large town or city in the UK.

Is it a uniquely British thing?    And very much a product (symptom) of that era?


What's the equivalent in other countries?     Did they not copy us?    What did they do instead?

I would go further and suggest that these back to back terraces are a uniquely English thing (possibly only in the Midlands?).  For whatever reason, Scotland tended to build flatted tenements to meet the needs of workers for industrial expansion, rather than the rows of brick terraces found in England.  In semi-urban or rural areas, it was not uncommon for these tenements to be only two-storeys, sometimes with an outside stair.  

One has to wonder how many of these properties are heat pump suitable (not withstanding the lack of insulation)?

As suitable as gas as it will be the same heat loss whether gas or electric heated surely?

Surely the main issue is getting enough radiator surface to meet the heat requirements of the rooms. It's not gas versus electricity but absolute heat output per room that is the limitting factor. Cost aside, a direct electric heater might adequately heat each room, while a heat pump would need really big radiators to meet the same heat output.

 I can't speak for the back-to-back terraces, but Scottish sandstone tenement buildings can be retro-insulated to modern standards... at a cost.

An ASHP can heat radiators to 50oC and more without starting up the auxillary electric heater (some don't even have these). There are a couple of people here that their system is designed for that heat and more all through the heat pump alone. Ours goes up to 60oC if we want to.

If someone is installing a heat pump to an older house then yes installation and design may need bigger radiators and bore and other changes but cost of install was not the discussion I was merely pointing out that the lack of insulation will have the same effect on a gas or electrically heated property you still lose the same amount of heat.

Qyburn

[Deleted User] said:

My experience of Evohome over 5 years was that I was unlikely ever to recover the £1800 investment.

It's going to depend on the application, but I can well believe you. However most of that cost is in radiator controllers, rather than the existence (or non-existence) of optimiser and/or WC functions.