Private vs State School

gorgeousme

zagfles said:

gorgeousme said:

My advice is to analyse your child and consider what the needs of your child are. Mine had private education from pre school until senior school and then attended a grammar school. Would I pay for education again? Yes in a heartbeat. It’s nothing to do with attainment/results. You can study for qualifications anytime in your life.
What I felt worth paying for was the nurture, the sense of aiming high as the norm, never settling for second best and self confidence. All of these show in the way a person carries oneself, and I have no regrets, all our sacrifices were worth it.

Being the "best" doesn't necessarily mean you're the happiest. Someone who thinks they should "never settle for second best", how will it affect their self confidence if they didn't get into Oxbridge, if they've not got the best house on the street, if they've not got the best car, if they're not the best at football, if they've not got the best exam results. If they only got a silver at the Olympics.

Zagfles, I’m sad to hear that your daughter was pressurised to go down the Oxbridge route. I am happy to report that mine did not have any pressure like that. When I said being the “best”, I meant being the best oneself can be, I did not mean being ranked first in the class/country/ world. Personally, I cannot see how you can be at your happiest if you settle to do “alright” …instead of going for the best one can do with the talents you have born with. If my best is a silver medal, then I would be happy with that. However, if I came 5th in a race because I couldn’t be bothered to work a little harder as opposed to not having the talent, then I would not be happy with myself.

tightauldgit

zagfles said:

gorgeousme said:

My advice is to analyse your child and consider what the needs of your child are. Mine had private education from pre school until senior school and then attended a grammar school. Would I pay for education again? Yes in a heartbeat. It’s nothing to do with attainment/results. You can study for qualifications anytime in your life.
What I felt worth paying for was the nurture, the sense of aiming high as the norm, never settling for second best and self confidence. All of these show in the way a person carries oneself, and I have no regrets, all our sacrifices were worth it.

Personally those are exactly the sort of attitudes I'd want to avoid and is a reason for avoiding private education! Aiming high in acedemic achievment is fine, and virtually every school will encourage that, but it can go too far, even in state schools. My daughter was pressurised to apply to Oxford or Cambridge, they took her on tours there, at parents evening they even gave us the hard sell on applying. She felt she had to apply to Cambridge to please the school, but she didn't like the place, didn't like the course, didn't like the formalities and pretentiousness. In the end she didn't apply, but felt very guilty for "letting the school down"!

I talked about this with my privately educated friend and he said this is 100x worse in private schools. He also applied to Cambridge because it was the expected thing, by the school, by his parents, but he didn't want to go and deliberately flunked the entrance exam He felt that was the only way out! He only confessed this to his parents 30 years later!

The state school I went to also pressurised us to apply, I applied and took the exam, but again, I didn't particularly like the course, I didn't get an offer but if I had I might have turned it down. Probably not, I'd have probably been swept away by the snobbery/prestigue of going there, but I'd like to think I would have, and chosen the excellent course I did in Manchester rather than one I didn't really want in Cambridge.

Being the "best" doesn't necessarily mean you're the happiest. Someone who thinks they should "never settle for second best", how will it affect their self confidence if they didn't get into Oxbridge, if they've not got the best house on the street, if they've not got the best car, if they're not the best at football, if they've not got the best exam results. If they only got a silver at the Olympics.

It's weird because I probably had the opposite experience. I went to a normal state school and was, looking back, probably academically very able to go to an Oxbridge school. I got 5 As at Higher and could probably have had my pick of any course I wanted to but nobody ever suggested I should go to Cambridge or become a barrister or study PPE and become a government minister or anything like that. 

And because my parents were just normal working folk I had nobody pushing me to do anything other than i wanted to do, but i had no idea what i wanted to do because I had no idea what any of these opportunities really were or anyone telling me that they were open to me. The career advice I got in school was 'you are good at computers so you should probably study something in IT'. 

I'm not saying that what you describe is the right way either but there are a lot of capable state school kids who just never think to aspire to the things that private school kids somehow think they deserve. 

In my view private schools should be abolished completely, it's just another relic of the class system in the UK that has to go. 

PandaGirl6

I spoke to my husband and we have decided to potentially move to a better catchment for a state school.

We are still a very young family and to be completely honest, I am in the 7th month of my pregnancy, but decisions like this have an impact on whether we do an extension on the house etc.

Shall the circumstances change and we have more passive income (f.eg. the investment flat is paid off), we'll happily invest into private school fees, especially the one we've looked at, which excells in sport and music.

Again - thank you. It's very useful to read different opinions to be able to formulate an opinion. 👍

Savvy_Sue

PandaGirl6 said:

Shall the circumstances change and we have more passive income (f.eg. the investment flat is paid off), we'll happily invest into private school fees, especially the one we've looked at, which excells in sport and music.

May not be worth doing that if you have children with a distinct aversion to sport and / or music (I had two ...)

TripleH

My wife went to state school and despite being the youngest, was the first sibling in her family to get a degree.

Her siblings went to private school. Her sister eventually got herself on a good path to success, but that is sown to her personality.

When at University I had a lecturer who had taught in private school, he said they coach you to do well in exams (you pay money to get good grades). This is a simplified view of things as it's also that you can make useful contacts for life.

[Deleted User]

I come to this discussion late. Due to work commitments, we moved our youngest daughter 8 times during her school life. Shortly after taking her 11+, we had to withdraw her from a very good grammar school because she couldn’t cope with 2 buses to school. She was home schooled for 9 months. She ended up getting an offer of a place at Cambridge but on the advice of her 6th Form tutor she went on to get a 1st Class degree from Warwick in Economics. A career with PwC then ensued which included a secondment to Toronto. She now works as a Vice President/Chief Accountant for a major international Toronto-based insurance firm.

I also worked for 5 years as a non-academic member of a senior management team at one of England’s top independent schools. What were parents getting for their money?  Obviously, a top notch education - primarily IB-based but with ‘A’ levels available to those students who wanted to go on to study subjects such as medicine; physics etc; small class and tutor groups; individual coaching; preparation for university etc. The College  also offered excellent sporting facilities and coaching from staff members who had played at international level. 

What I noticed most was the confidence that the system instilled into the students. They were articulate without being arrogant (in most cases) and they very focussed on their futures. Clearly, the students also made invaluable contacts which would serve them well in their future careers. Work experience was never an issue and parents often mentioned that they were employing a number of ex-College graduates. 

We can debate all day whether it is fair or not? What I would say is that doing away with independent schools is unlikely to raise academic standards as some people would like to think. 

zagfles

tightauldgit said:

zagfles said:

gorgeousme said:

My advice is to analyse your child and consider what the needs of your child are. Mine had private education from pre school until senior school and then attended a grammar school. Would I pay for education again? Yes in a heartbeat. It’s nothing to do with attainment/results. You can study for qualifications anytime in your life.
What I felt worth paying for was the nurture, the sense of aiming high as the norm, never settling for second best and self confidence. All of these show in the way a person carries oneself, and I have no regrets, all our sacrifices were worth it.

Personally those are exactly the sort of attitudes I'd want to avoid and is a reason for avoiding private education! Aiming high in acedemic achievment is fine, and virtually every school will encourage that, but it can go too far, even in state schools. My daughter was pressurised to apply to Oxford or Cambridge, they took her on tours there, at parents evening they even gave us the hard sell on applying. She felt she had to apply to Cambridge to please the school, but she didn't like the place, didn't like the course, didn't like the formalities and pretentiousness. In the end she didn't apply, but felt very guilty for "letting the school down"!

I talked about this with my privately educated friend and he said this is 100x worse in private schools. He also applied to Cambridge because it was the expected thing, by the school, by his parents, but he didn't want to go and deliberately flunked the entrance exam He felt that was the only way out! He only confessed this to his parents 30 years later!

The state school I went to also pressurised us to apply, I applied and took the exam, but again, I didn't particularly like the course, I didn't get an offer but if I had I might have turned it down. Probably not, I'd have probably been swept away by the snobbery/prestigue of going there, but I'd like to think I would have, and chosen the excellent course I did in Manchester rather than one I didn't really want in Cambridge.

Being the "best" doesn't necessarily mean you're the happiest. Someone who thinks they should "never settle for second best", how will it affect their self confidence if they didn't get into Oxbridge, if they've not got the best house on the street, if they've not got the best car, if they're not the best at football, if they've not got the best exam results. If they only got a silver at the Olympics.

It's weird because I probably had the opposite experience. I went to a normal state school and was, looking back, probably academically very able to go to an Oxbridge school. I got 5 As at Higher and could probably have had my pick of any course I wanted to but nobody ever suggested I should go to Cambridge or become a barrister or study PPE and become a government minister or anything like that. 

And because my parents were just normal working folk I had nobody pushing me to do anything other than i wanted to do, but i had no idea what i wanted to do because I had no idea what any of these opportunities really were or anyone telling me that they were open to me. The career advice I got in school was 'you are good at computers so you should probably study something in IT'. 

I'm not saying that what you describe is the right way either but there are a lot of capable state school kids who just never think to aspire to the things that private school kids somehow think they deserve. 

In my view private schools should be abolished completely, it's just another relic of the class system in the UK that has to go. 

I presume that was a long time ago - my experience in the 80's may not have been typical then, but I think my daughter's is now. Even state schools tend to have a "business development manager" or such like, state schools market themselves, particularly 6th form colleges, and of course stuff like uni admissions, Oxbridge admissions is a good advertising lever, so it's in their interests to get as many students into unis, particularly the top ones. 

zagfles

gorgeousme said:

zagfles said:

gorgeousme said:

My advice is to analyse your child and consider what the needs of your child are. Mine had private education from pre school until senior school and then attended a grammar school. Would I pay for education again? Yes in a heartbeat. It’s nothing to do with attainment/results. You can study for qualifications anytime in your life.
What I felt worth paying for was the nurture, the sense of aiming high as the norm, never settling for second best and self confidence. All of these show in the way a person carries oneself, and I have no regrets, all our sacrifices were worth it.

Being the "best" doesn't necessarily mean you're the happiest. Someone who thinks they should "never settle for second best", how will it affect their self confidence if they didn't get into Oxbridge, if they've not got the best house on the street, if they've not got the best car, if they're not the best at football, if they've not got the best exam results. If they only got a silver at the Olympics.

Zagfles, I’m sad to hear that your daughter was pressurised to go down the Oxbridge route. I am happy to report that mine did not have any pressure like that. When I said being the “best”, I meant being the best oneself can be, I did not mean being ranked first in the class/country/ world. Personally, I cannot see how you can be at your happiest if you settle to do “alright” …instead of going for the best one can do with the talents you have born with. If my best is a silver medal, then I would be happy with that. However, if I came 5th in a race because I couldn’t be bothered to work a little harder as opposed to not having the talent, then I would not be happy with myself.

There will always be a compromise between how much effort it's worth putting into anything and the reward you get out. Olympic athletes are probably a good example, to win a gold medal at anything, ie basically being the best in the world at it, you'd need to dedicate your life to it, at the virtual exclusion of almost anything else. If you don't, someone else will, and so they'd have the edge. And of course you could do all that and someone else could still beat you because they did the same but they're slightly more talented, taller, stronger, whatever. There's a massive price to pay to be "the best you can be".

Same with anything. I'd prefer my kids to have a good work/life balance, study hard but not ridiculously hard, still have time for a social life and a bit of fun, and end up getting 2 A*s and 2 As at A levels, than do nothing but study, neglect their friends, social life, everything else, and end up with 4 A*s.

They seemed to get the compromise right, both got mostly A*s but not all at both GCSE and A levels, and then firsts at uni. They could probably have done nothing but study at the expense of a social life and got straight A*s, but it wouldn't have been a price worth paying, they've both now got good jobs and are well rounded people rather than people who only understand how to pass exams. All work and no play etc.

Like with buying products, eg cars, phones, holidays etc, the "best" rarely worth the price, in anything.

zagfles

Dolor said:

I come to this discussion late. Due to work commitments, we moved our youngest daughter 8 times during her school life. Shortly after taking her 11+, we had to withdraw her from a very good grammar school because she couldn’t cope with 2 buses to school. She was home schooled for 9 months. She ended up getting an offer of a place at Cambridge but on the advice of her 6th Form tutor she went on to get a 1st Class degree from Warwick in Economics. A career with PwC then ensued which included a secondment to Toronto. She now works as a Vice President/Chief Accountant for a major international Toronto-based insurance firm.

I also worked for 5 years as a non-academic member of a senior management team at one of England’s top independent schools. What were parents getting for their money?  Obviously, a top notch education - primarily IB-based but with ‘A’ levels available to those students who wanted to go on to study subjects such as medicine; physics etc; small class and tutor groups; individual coaching; preparation for university etc. The College  also offered excellent sporting facilities and coaching from staff members who had played at international level. 

What I noticed most was the confidence that the system instilled into the students. They were articulate without being arrogant (in most cases) and they very focussed on their futures. Clearly, the students also made invaluable contacts which would serve them well in their future careers. Work experience was never an issue and parents often mentioned that they were employing a number of ex-College graduates. 

We can debate all day whether it is fair or not? What I would say is that doing away with independent schools is unlikely to raise academic standards as some people would like to think. 

I think there certainly used to a be a big "old school tie" advantage in the private education sector, but these days with virtually all large companies obsessed with "diversity and inclusion" initiatives, is it still the case? Most people seem to make more lifelong friends at uni rather than school, I'm not in touch with any old school friends but am with several old uni friends.

It was interesting with the ex private school friend I mentioned above, at uni he started off quite arrogant and very possessive, and wary of the rest of us, and he just wouldn't get stuff we were talking about, it was sometimes like we were speaking a different language. But after a few months he matured and starting being able to interact with us, trust us, get us (and us him), and it turned out he was actually a nice person not the arrogant snob he initially came across as!

gorgeousme

Zagfles, you seem to have a very strong view ! You are entitled to your views and that is what makes the world interesting…otherwise we would all behave the same like robots. 

You are happy with your life decisions and so am I, we have different views but neither one of us is more right and it’s okay. Similarly, there is no right answer to whether Heinz ketchup is worth the money especially when you can get a Lidl version for 20% of the price. If that satisfies you, then it is the right decision.