Private vs State School

Spendless

PandaGirl6 said:

zagfles said:

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

A general observation: it is much preferable to be the richest pupil at a state school than the poorest one at a private school.  You have mentioned possible struggles with fees and ought to be mindful of the possibility of a bruising encounter with the class system for the girl.  Simply being able to pay for the teaching doesn't guarantee that one will belong or be accepted in those places.  

There will be incidental expenses and, more to the point, expectations of lifestyle will be placed upon both pupil and parents.  She will need to socialize in a manner accordant with her peers, can you afford that?  Don't expect to have her friends' parents stand for you taking their daughters to McDonald's (as an example) either, when it's your turn to host...

Very true, I've heard it said you should be able to afford twice the school fees in order to pay for all the extras, like school trips and the required "fashions" etc. One of my uni flatmates who I'm still in contact with went to a private school, he says they made life intolerable for kids from "ordinary" backgrounds whose parents scrimped to afford the fees, when they didn't turn up in all the expensive clobber etc on school trips. He's OK now but he freely admits he was a right snob at school!

It has crossed my mind, but by secondary school time it might be less of an issue for us.
We don't eat at McDonald's anyway. Ha! Mainly for health reasons.

I've read other forums with conflicting opinions on the subject and came to a conclusion that it is unpredictable. It seems like pupils from very diverse backgrounds attend the school I've been looking at. Might just have to get a tutor during the primary to increase her chances of getting a place later on. By secondary school, ski holidays would be affordable. No brand new cars though! 

I've heard kids can get bullied for anything. If the bully wants to find a reason, they will. Could be financial status, ethnicity (which will play a huge role for us), looks, ability etc. You just never know.

The private school I was looking has great results but is not very elitist - a couple of my friends graduated from there and they are very kind and down to earth.
State school can be brutal too and it seems it can be much more difficult for a school to expell a misbehaving student, considering they would need to find an alternative for the pupil.
As I've mentioned, might just move to a good catchment for now 👍.

I agree with this. I've said it before in school uniform arguments. A bully will bully because they can. This doesn't mean private schools will definitely have  better behaviour. I know at our local private that they won't say anything about the kids behaviour for fear of upsetting paying parents. In recent years the sixth form ended up the national papers due to their antics. I have it on very good terms that next to nothing was said to those concerned.

State schools have to pay a lot of money to expel a pupil, that's why a lot shy away from doing so. I don't *think*  it's down to the school to find an alternative but to the local authority, I might be wrong.

My younger one didn't have a good time in the later years at a state Secondary. She got through, actually for the last 6 months of yr11  due to a complaint put in by me and DH, over the dire handling of her case, she ended up with the best of both worlds, attending a state school part time and private  1-1 tutors at home  in her core subjects paid for by her original school (yes I know this is rare, it happened believe me!). It got her through passing her much reduced GCSEs. When we've talked about it now as she's almost 20 I've said to her if we could go back would you have preferred me to have moved you to private school for the last few years and she's always said No because she would have rather had the experiences we could give her outside of school and at 18+ that wouldn't have been affordable if we had spent the money on school fees. I'd take that into account too, affording other experiences beyond school if you decide to go down the private route.  

gorgeousme

My advice is to analyse your child and consider what the needs of your child are. Mine had private education from pre school until senior school and then attended a grammar school. Would I pay for education again? Yes in a heartbeat. It’s nothing to do with attainment/results. You can study for qualifications anytime in your life.
What I felt worth paying for was the nurture, the sense of aiming high as the norm, never settling for second best and self confidence. All of these show in the way a person carries oneself, and I have no regrets, all our sacrifices were worth it.

zagfles

Spendless said:

PandaGirl6 said:

zagfles said:

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

A general observation: it is much preferable to be the richest pupil at a state school than the poorest one at a private school.  You have mentioned possible struggles with fees and ought to be mindful of the possibility of a bruising encounter with the class system for the girl.  Simply being able to pay for the teaching doesn't guarantee that one will belong or be accepted in those places.  

There will be incidental expenses and, more to the point, expectations of lifestyle will be placed upon both pupil and parents.  She will need to socialize in a manner accordant with her peers, can you afford that?  Don't expect to have her friends' parents stand for you taking their daughters to McDonald's (as an example) either, when it's your turn to host...

Very true, I've heard it said you should be able to afford twice the school fees in order to pay for all the extras, like school trips and the required "fashions" etc. One of my uni flatmates who I'm still in contact with went to a private school, he says they made life intolerable for kids from "ordinary" backgrounds whose parents scrimped to afford the fees, when they didn't turn up in all the expensive clobber etc on school trips. He's OK now but he freely admits he was a right snob at school!

It has crossed my mind, but by secondary school time it might be less of an issue for us.
We don't eat at McDonald's anyway. Ha! Mainly for health reasons.

I've read other forums with conflicting opinions on the subject and came to a conclusion that it is unpredictable. It seems like pupils from very diverse backgrounds attend the school I've been looking at. Might just have to get a tutor during the primary to increase her chances of getting a place later on. By secondary school, ski holidays would be affordable. No brand new cars though! 

I've heard kids can get bullied for anything. If the bully wants to find a reason, they will. Could be financial status, ethnicity (which will play a huge role for us), looks, ability etc. You just never know.

The private school I was looking has great results but is not very elitist - a couple of my friends graduated from there and they are very kind and down to earth.
State school can be brutal too and it seems it can be much more difficult for a school to expell a misbehaving student, considering they would need to find an alternative for the pupil.
As I've mentioned, might just move to a good catchment for now 👍.

I agree with this. I've said it before in school uniform arguments. A bully will bully because they can. This doesn't mean private schools will definitely have  better behaviour. I know at our local private that they won't say anything about the kids behaviour for fear of upsetting paying parents. In recent years the sixth form ended up the national papers due to their antics. I have it on very good terms that next to nothing was said to those concerned.

Yes plus there's different types of bullying - people tend to think about one or two bullies beating up the different kid, but arguably worse there's the lower level group bullying that virtually everyone takes part in. Stuff like using derogatory nicknames (we had a kid in our school everyone called Catweazel because he was always scruffy, another we called Lord Snooty because he'd previously been in a private school, another we called Quentin because everyone assumed he was gay). Stuff like conversations designed to belittle or exclude, like my privately educated friend would say they'd deliberately start conversations about stuff like where their favourite ski resort with people they knew couldn't afford to go skiing every winter or even at all, or about stupidly expensive designer clothes etc. No school is going to exclude anyone for this type of bullying, they'd have to exclude most of the school!

zagfles

gorgeousme said:

My advice is to analyse your child and consider what the needs of your child are. Mine had private education from pre school until senior school and then attended a grammar school. Would I pay for education again? Yes in a heartbeat. It’s nothing to do with attainment/results. You can study for qualifications anytime in your life.
What I felt worth paying for was the nurture, the sense of aiming high as the norm, never settling for second best and self confidence. All of these show in the way a person carries oneself, and I have no regrets, all our sacrifices were worth it.

Personally those are exactly the sort of attitudes I'd want to avoid and is a reason for avoiding private education! Aiming high in acedemic achievment is fine, and virtually every school will encourage that, but it can go too far, even in state schools. My daughter was pressurised to apply to Oxford or Cambridge, they took her on tours there, at parents evening they even gave us the hard sell on applying. She felt she had to apply to Cambridge to please the school, but she didn't like the place, didn't like the course, didn't like the formalities and pretentiousness. In the end she didn't apply, but felt very guilty for "letting the school down"!

I talked about this with my privately educated friend and he said this is 100x worse in private schools. He also applied to Cambridge because it was the expected thing, by the school, by his parents, but he didn't want to go and deliberately flunked the entrance exam He felt that was the only way out! He only confessed this to his parents 30 years later!

The state school I went to also pressurised us to apply, I applied and took the exam, but again, I didn't particularly like the course, I didn't get an offer but if I had I might have turned it down. Probably not, I'd have probably been swept away by the snobbery/prestigue of going there, but I'd like to think I would have, and chosen the excellent course I did in Manchester rather than one I didn't really want in Cambridge.

Being the "best" doesn't necessarily mean you're the happiest. Someone who thinks they should "never settle for second best", how will it affect their self confidence if they didn't get into Oxbridge, if they've not got the best house on the street, if they've not got the best car, if they're not the best at football, if they've not got the best exam results. If they only got a silver at the Olympics.

strawb_shortcake

zagfles said:

gorgeousme said:

My advice is to analyse your child and consider what the needs of your child are. Mine had private education from pre school until senior school and then attended a grammar school. Would I pay for education again? Yes in a heartbeat. It’s nothing to do with attainment/results. You can study for qualifications anytime in your life.
What I felt worth paying for was the nurture, the sense of aiming high as the norm, never settling for second best and self confidence. All of these show in the way a person carries oneself, and I have no regrets, all our sacrifices were worth it.

Personally those are exactly the sort of attitudes I'd want to avoid and is a reason for avoiding private education! Aiming high in acedemic achievment is fine, and virtually every school will encourage that, but it can go too far, even in state schools. My daughter was pressurised to apply to Oxford or Cambridge, they took her on tours there, at parents evening they even gave us the hard sell on applying. She felt she had to apply to Cambridge to please the school, but she didn't like the place, didn't like the course, didn't like the formalities and pretentiousness. In the end she didn't apply, but felt very guilty for "letting the school down"!

I talked about this with my privately educated friend and he said this is 100x worse in private schools. He also applied to Cambridge because it was the expected thing, by the school, by his parents, but he didn't want to go and deliberately flunked the entrance exam He felt that was the only way out! He only confessed this to his parents 30 years later!

The state school I went to also pressurised us to apply, I applied and took the exam, but again, I didn't particularly like the course, I didn't get an offer but if I had I might have turned it down. Probably not, I'd have probably been swept away by the snobbery/prestigue of going there, but I'd like to think I would have, and chosen the excellent course I did in Manchester rather than one I didn't really want in Cambridge.

Being the "best" doesn't necessarily mean you're the happiest. Someone who thinks they should "never settle for second best", how will it affect their self confidence if they didn't get into Oxbridge, if they've not got the best house on the street, if they've not got the best car, if they're not the best at football, if they've not got the best exam results. If they only got a silver at the Olympics.

Loosely related my children's secondary school seems to have picked up a habit of sixth form students applying for Cambridge/Oxford with the only intention of rejecting the offer 

zagfles

annabanana82 said:

zagfles said:

gorgeousme said:

My advice is to analyse your child and consider what the needs of your child are. Mine had private education from pre school until senior school and then attended a grammar school. Would I pay for education again? Yes in a heartbeat. It’s nothing to do with attainment/results. You can study for qualifications anytime in your life.
What I felt worth paying for was the nurture, the sense of aiming high as the norm, never settling for second best and self confidence. All of these show in the way a person carries oneself, and I have no regrets, all our sacrifices were worth it.

Personally those are exactly the sort of attitudes I'd want to avoid and is a reason for avoiding private education! Aiming high in acedemic achievment is fine, and virtually every school will encourage that, but it can go too far, even in state schools. My daughter was pressurised to apply to Oxford or Cambridge, they took her on tours there, at parents evening they even gave us the hard sell on applying. She felt she had to apply to Cambridge to please the school, but she didn't like the place, didn't like the course, didn't like the formalities and pretentiousness. In the end she didn't apply, but felt very guilty for "letting the school down"!

I talked about this with my privately educated friend and he said this is 100x worse in private schools. He also applied to Cambridge because it was the expected thing, by the school, by his parents, but he didn't want to go and deliberately flunked the entrance exam He felt that was the only way out! He only confessed this to his parents 30 years later!

The state school I went to also pressurised us to apply, I applied and took the exam, but again, I didn't particularly like the course, I didn't get an offer but if I had I might have turned it down. Probably not, I'd have probably been swept away by the snobbery/prestigue of going there, but I'd like to think I would have, and chosen the excellent course I did in Manchester rather than one I didn't really want in Cambridge.

Being the "best" doesn't necessarily mean you're the happiest. Someone who thinks they should "never settle for second best", how will it affect their self confidence if they didn't get into Oxbridge, if they've not got the best house on the street, if they've not got the best car, if they're not the best at football, if they've not got the best exam results. If they only got a silver at the Olympics.

Loosely related my children's secondary school seems to have picked up a habit of sixth form students applying for Cambridge/Oxford with the only intention of rejecting the offer 

Why, just to make the school's stats look better? "7 of our pupils were offered a place at Oxbridge last year!!". Seems a waste of an application as there's a low limit on how many you can apply to (5?)

When I applied (in the 80's) you had to list 5 unis in order of preference, if you applied to Oxford/Cambridge you apparently had to put them first otherwise it'd be a straight rejection! That sort of arrogance and snobbery makes me glad I failed to get in (well now anyway!)

strawb_shortcake

zagfles said:

annabanana82 said:

zagfles said:

gorgeousme said:

My advice is to analyse your child and consider what the needs of your child are. Mine had private education from pre school until senior school and then attended a grammar school. Would I pay for education again? Yes in a heartbeat. It’s nothing to do with attainment/results. You can study for qualifications anytime in your life.
What I felt worth paying for was the nurture, the sense of aiming high as the norm, never settling for second best and self confidence. All of these show in the way a person carries oneself, and I have no regrets, all our sacrifices were worth it.

Personally those are exactly the sort of attitudes I'd want to avoid and is a reason for avoiding private education! Aiming high in acedemic achievment is fine, and virtually every school will encourage that, but it can go too far, even in state schools. My daughter was pressurised to apply to Oxford or Cambridge, they took her on tours there, at parents evening they even gave us the hard sell on applying. She felt she had to apply to Cambridge to please the school, but she didn't like the place, didn't like the course, didn't like the formalities and pretentiousness. In the end she didn't apply, but felt very guilty for "letting the school down"!

I talked about this with my privately educated friend and he said this is 100x worse in private schools. He also applied to Cambridge because it was the expected thing, by the school, by his parents, but he didn't want to go and deliberately flunked the entrance exam He felt that was the only way out! He only confessed this to his parents 30 years later!

The state school I went to also pressurised us to apply, I applied and took the exam, but again, I didn't particularly like the course, I didn't get an offer but if I had I might have turned it down. Probably not, I'd have probably been swept away by the snobbery/prestigue of going there, but I'd like to think I would have, and chosen the excellent course I did in Manchester rather than one I didn't really want in Cambridge.

Being the "best" doesn't necessarily mean you're the happiest. Someone who thinks they should "never settle for second best", how will it affect their self confidence if they didn't get into Oxbridge, if they've not got the best house on the street, if they've not got the best car, if they're not the best at football, if they've not got the best exam results. If they only got a silver at the Olympics.

Loosely related my children's secondary school seems to have picked up a habit of sixth form students applying for Cambridge/Oxford with the only intention of rejecting the offer 

Why, just to make the school's stats look better? "7 of our pupils were offered a place at Oxbridge last year!!". Seems a waste of an application as there's a low limit on how many you can apply to (5?)

When I applied (in the 80's) you had to list 5 unis in order of preference, if you applied to Oxford/Cambridge you apparently had to put them first otherwise it'd be a straight rejection! That sort of arrogance and snobbery makes me glad I failed to get in (well now anyway!)

It's the students rather than the school, the school has always had a small number get into the Universities, seems to be more a power play from the students, bragging rights to say "I turned down Oxford"

zagfles

annabanana82 said:

zagfles said:

annabanana82 said:

zagfles said:

gorgeousme said:

My advice is to analyse your child and consider what the needs of your child are. Mine had private education from pre school until senior school and then attended a grammar school. Would I pay for education again? Yes in a heartbeat. It’s nothing to do with attainment/results. You can study for qualifications anytime in your life.
What I felt worth paying for was the nurture, the sense of aiming high as the norm, never settling for second best and self confidence. All of these show in the way a person carries oneself, and I have no regrets, all our sacrifices were worth it.

Personally those are exactly the sort of attitudes I'd want to avoid and is a reason for avoiding private education! Aiming high in acedemic achievment is fine, and virtually every school will encourage that, but it can go too far, even in state schools. My daughter was pressurised to apply to Oxford or Cambridge, they took her on tours there, at parents evening they even gave us the hard sell on applying. She felt she had to apply to Cambridge to please the school, but she didn't like the place, didn't like the course, didn't like the formalities and pretentiousness. In the end she didn't apply, but felt very guilty for "letting the school down"!

I talked about this with my privately educated friend and he said this is 100x worse in private schools. He also applied to Cambridge because it was the expected thing, by the school, by his parents, but he didn't want to go and deliberately flunked the entrance exam He felt that was the only way out! He only confessed this to his parents 30 years later!

The state school I went to also pressurised us to apply, I applied and took the exam, but again, I didn't particularly like the course, I didn't get an offer but if I had I might have turned it down. Probably not, I'd have probably been swept away by the snobbery/prestigue of going there, but I'd like to think I would have, and chosen the excellent course I did in Manchester rather than one I didn't really want in Cambridge.

Being the "best" doesn't necessarily mean you're the happiest. Someone who thinks they should "never settle for second best", how will it affect their self confidence if they didn't get into Oxbridge, if they've not got the best house on the street, if they've not got the best car, if they're not the best at football, if they've not got the best exam results. If they only got a silver at the Olympics.

Loosely related my children's secondary school seems to have picked up a habit of sixth form students applying for Cambridge/Oxford with the only intention of rejecting the offer 

Why, just to make the school's stats look better? "7 of our pupils were offered a place at Oxbridge last year!!". Seems a waste of an application as there's a low limit on how many you can apply to (5?)

When I applied (in the 80's) you had to list 5 unis in order of preference, if you applied to Oxford/Cambridge you apparently had to put them first otherwise it'd be a straight rejection! That sort of arrogance and snobbery makes me glad I failed to get in (well now anyway!)

It's the students rather than the school, the school has always had a small number get into the Universities, seems to be more a power play from the students, bragging rights to say "I turned down Oxford"

Hmm...bit sad really that some kids feel the need to possibly jepordise a place at uni by wasting a choice, just so thay can get a bit of attention or be seen as interesting, rebellious or whatever...

strawb_shortcake

zagfles said:

annabanana82 said:

zagfles said:

annabanana82 said:

zagfles said:

gorgeousme said:

My advice is to analyse your child and consider what the needs of your child are. Mine had private education from pre school until senior school and then attended a grammar school. Would I pay for education again? Yes in a heartbeat. It’s nothing to do with attainment/results. You can study for qualifications anytime in your life.
What I felt worth paying for was the nurture, the sense of aiming high as the norm, never settling for second best and self confidence. All of these show in the way a person carries oneself, and I have no regrets, all our sacrifices were worth it.

Personally those are exactly the sort of attitudes I'd want to avoid and is a reason for avoiding private education! Aiming high in acedemic achievment is fine, and virtually every school will encourage that, but it can go too far, even in state schools. My daughter was pressurised to apply to Oxford or Cambridge, they took her on tours there, at parents evening they even gave us the hard sell on applying. She felt she had to apply to Cambridge to please the school, but she didn't like the place, didn't like the course, didn't like the formalities and pretentiousness. In the end she didn't apply, but felt very guilty for "letting the school down"!

I talked about this with my privately educated friend and he said this is 100x worse in private schools. He also applied to Cambridge because it was the expected thing, by the school, by his parents, but he didn't want to go and deliberately flunked the entrance exam He felt that was the only way out! He only confessed this to his parents 30 years later!

The state school I went to also pressurised us to apply, I applied and took the exam, but again, I didn't particularly like the course, I didn't get an offer but if I had I might have turned it down. Probably not, I'd have probably been swept away by the snobbery/prestigue of going there, but I'd like to think I would have, and chosen the excellent course I did in Manchester rather than one I didn't really want in Cambridge.

Being the "best" doesn't necessarily mean you're the happiest. Someone who thinks they should "never settle for second best", how will it affect their self confidence if they didn't get into Oxbridge, if they've not got the best house on the street, if they've not got the best car, if they're not the best at football, if they've not got the best exam results. If they only got a silver at the Olympics.

Loosely related my children's secondary school seems to have picked up a habit of sixth form students applying for Cambridge/Oxford with the only intention of rejecting the offer 

Why, just to make the school's stats look better? "7 of our pupils were offered a place at Oxbridge last year!!". Seems a waste of an application as there's a low limit on how many you can apply to (5?)

When I applied (in the 80's) you had to list 5 unis in order of preference, if you applied to Oxford/Cambridge you apparently had to put them first otherwise it'd be a straight rejection! That sort of arrogance and snobbery makes me glad I failed to get in (well now anyway!)

It's the students rather than the school, the school has always had a small number get into the Universities, seems to be more a power play from the students, bragging rights to say "I turned down Oxford"

Hmm...bit sad really that some kids feel the need to possibly jepordise a place at uni by wasting a choice, just so thay can get a bit of attention or be seen as interesting, rebellious or whatever...

Agreed, I'd imagine it may well be a decision they come to regret, but folly of youth and all that

barbarawright

25% of children in Edinburgh go to private schools - about 3 times the percentage in the rest of the country. I have no idea what says about the quality of schools in each sector but don't assume that a school is 'better' just because it's private