Smart thermostat advice: danfoss tpone-s vs honeywell t6

Magnitio

thrope said:

Thanks, sounds great. It's mainly about long term support rather than internet access that I'm thinking about. Do you know how the thermostat works? Is it normal thermostat with hysteresis, or does it use time-proportional-integration (TPI) where it fires for a certain amount of time every 10 minutes (ie on 3 minutes in 10).

It is worth looking through the user manual that can be found here:
https://www.netatmo.com/en-gb/energy/thermostat/specifications
It answers your questions and a lot more. One of the best manuals I've seen.

BUFF

thrope said:

Thanks, it's a good point. The tpone-s also plugs in I think. I thought all the ones that meet the "fully functional offline" criteria and have wifi seem to. But Danfoss also make a tpone-rf with the same device functionality (but no wifi/smartphone) that runs on battery.

In that case maybe Drayton Wiser is the only one that really meets both of those (fully fucntioning offline and battery thermostat) so maybe I should look again. I think it was mostly the TRVs that were poorly reviewed in the Drayton Wiser system but there were enough (relative to the other ones) to put me off. Is it really fully functional offline (ie can change schedule, advance, change temps etc.) or does it just "keep schedule locally" so without internet it will continue on the preset schedule but you cannot make changes anymore?

Oil boilers don't modulate, so no need for opentherm. That's why the TPI thermostat is relatively more important also.

TPone-s definitely doesn't have weather compensation, but I'm not sure how that works. I mean in theory the internal temperature should be enough of a clue of how long it needs to warm up (ie if the house is 6 it will need to start earlier than if the house is 15). I find it is a frustrating market because there is so little technical detail of how any of these things work. It took me a long time to figure out the simple Danfoss thermostat we have now is TPI with a 10 minute cycle that starts modulating when the temp gets to within 2 degrees of set. Learning I am not sure. I'm not even sure what feature that refers to. My understanding was the tpone-s should reach the target temp at the set time so had some degree of learning, but it definitely won't learn my schedule like Nest does. I don't want "learn my schedule" or geofencing, but I do want "acheive target temp at set time so fire the boiler at the appropriate time to acheive that".

I will look into the Drayton wiser in more detail though, thanks again. 

Basically I want the "target temp target time" feature with being able to program multiple temps at different times (for set back overnight). Being able to adapt to flexible working schedule is handy too but the smartphone control seems the best way to address that (put to a setback temperature, turn on remotely when I know I'll be coming home).

My understanding is that you can change schedules etc. on Wiser without an internet connection but you will need a smartphone+app.
https://www.productinfo.schneider-electric.com/wiser_home/wiser-room-thermostat_device-user-guide_wiser-home/English/Wiser_Room_Thermostat_Wiser_Home_Device user guide_0000774575.pdf
Drayton are part of a large European group specialising in building control etc. so hopefully long term support is assured.

There is at least one oil boiler that modulates & uses OpenTherm but it may still be only under trials.

Weather compensation works by taking into account external temperature (ideally from a local sensor but this can also be done from data from the internet incl. weather forecast) to get ahead of the programme before the building temp. drops & adjusting the boiler flow temp. accordingly. Viessmann & others certainly reckon than it is potentially more effective than load compensation (using internal temperature) but it possibly may be little difference in a non-modulating boiler. 

It may also be worth looking at Hive as I understand they also have at least one battery thermostat model.

thrope

The wiser looks OK. For me though heat and hot water are such a fundamental part of the house I'm reluctant to have it depend on too much technology as a matter of principle. Ie I think anyone I give a key too in an emergency should be able to come in and turn the heating on, without needing to register an app on their phone, connect to wifi, sync something etc. If there is power to the home then anyone in the home should be able to operate the heating, with or without internet, with or without a working smartphone. I think controllling from phone while out and being able to see the temperature is a great feature, but not at the cost of losing the basic ability for anyone in the house to control the heating like with a normal thermostat. So that's what I'm looking for - which the tpone and the honeywell t6 satisfy, as far as I can tell (but Wiser, Netato, Hive, tado, nest don't).

I wouldn't use geofencing, don't need weather compensation (I think that is more useful for controlling the flow temperature on gas boilers, but I can only set that by hand on my new but very basic Grant oil boiler). I just want to be able to set multiple temps on a timer and have it start at the right times.

Differences I can see are tpone offers 4 temperature settings which can be scheduled how you like, and has buttons to +1 or -1 a degree to all settings together. T6 seems to be a 6 period schedule timer (not sure if 6 transition or 6 periods) where each period can have whatever temperature you set. But I'm not sure in the T6 if you can easily "Advance" to next period. But I would like to understand more the honeywell range and how T6 fits in with evohome and the new smart thermostat. Is it an older model that is being retired?

Magnitio

With most of the smart thermostats, anyone can just turn the heating up manually by pressing a button or turning a knob without access to an app. Our Netatmo thermostat is on the wall in our hall and just needs pressing to increase the temperature. I understand your reluctance to be reliant on a provider's infrastructure, but with substantial sales and backing from major organisations, I am sure many of them will be around for a long time.

thrope

Magnitio said:

With most of the smart thermostats, anyone can just turn the heating up manually by pressing a button or turning a knob without access to an app. Our Netatmo thermostat is on the wall in our hall and just needs pressing to increase the temperature. I understand your reluctance to be reliant on a provider's infrastructure, but with substantial sales and backing from major organisations, I am sure many of them will be around for a long time.

I appreciate that, but my understanding is for many this won't work if the internet is down. And even with internet up, cannot necessarily set schedule, advance to next period, change timer or temperature for the next morning etc. from the device without a smartphone.

I would certainly consider it if it was not possible to get the smart functionality I am looking for from a device that can also be operated directly, but it is possible - so far I am pretty sure the honeywell t6r and danfoss tpone-s support this (but they do both have to be plugged in so cannot easily be moved).

If it was possible to get a device that was fully programmable even offline, but that still had a battery powered termostat section that would be ideal.

I've tried to be clear about what I am looking for, and the fact that so much of the information about these products is marketing fluff with very little details of the functionality. It would be great if anyone has any firsthand expeirence with eitehr the TPone or the honeywell t6.

[Deleted User]

Try this forum. It tends to be Honeywell Evohome centric but there are some very knowledgeable contributors:

https://www.automatedhome.co.uk/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?13-Heating-Control

vic_sf49

Or get a list of questions together, and ask the companies directly.

I did that with Hive, as their "help" pages seemed to revolve around the one with the WiFi hub, and not the standalone version.

 

I couldn't understand how the latter controlled the boiler if the thermostat wasn't hard wired in etc etc, and a few other questions.

So I got in touch with them via Messenger, and was very pleased with their explanations of it all.

 

Although by the time I'd understood it all, the system with the hub had massively dropped in price, so I bought that anyway.