Co-executor dictating entry to unoccupied house

Daniel54

In the scheme of things this is an annoying rather than critical issue, but I would appreciate any feedback

My sister was with me  attorney to my aunt and nominated next of kin.As attorneys we had access to the property while my aunt was in hospital and then in a care home until she passed  away in September.

This suggests to me my sister  is entirely trustworthy  to remove clothes of the deceased from the property, which I have viewed as an intimate act, and shared this view with my co-executors

Notwithstanding one executor is insisting " as a matter of principle" that an executor should be present while my sister is there.The other executor is entirely relaxed on this issue

Is he able to make this stipulation or is my permission as executor sufficient ?

Realistically I will probably get stuck in a traffic jam.It is a 3 to 4 hour round trip .

But I have some concerns  if the views of one executor might end up dictating how we three manage the probate process

Savvy_Sue

If your sister is not an executor, then I guess technically your co-executor may be correct, in that as executors you are responsible for the assets of the estate, but I'm not aware of any 'law' which would apply. 

I'd suggest that if they are so concerned, they attend with your sister, because a) you trust your sister and b) you are unable to accompany her on each visit. 

It may be that only one executor visit is necessary, to remove and secure valuables, leaving clothes etc for later disposal, but you will need to make regular inspections of the property. If you sister lives nearby, then she is ideally placed to carry these out, but again, does your co-executor trust her? If not, they know what they need to do. 

(We kept mum's gardener on after she died, to ensure the place didn't look deserted, and they carried out the inspections too.)

Being pragmatic, would it be enough for your sister to send photos on each visit? How does Executor 3 feel? 

Daniel54

Savvy_Sue said:

If your sister is not an executor, then I guess technically your co-executor may be correct, in that as executors you are responsible for the assets of the estate, but I'm not aware of any 'law' which would apply. 

I'd suggest that if they are so concerned, they attend with your sister, because a) you trust your sister and b) you are unable to accompany her on each visit. 

It may be that only one executor visit is necessary, to remove and secure valuables, leaving clothes etc for later disposal, but you will need to make regular inspections of the property. If you sister lives nearby, then she is ideally placed to carry these out, but again, does your co-executor trust her? If not, they know what they need to do. 

(We kept mum's gardener on after she died, to ensure the place didn't look deserted, and they carried out the inspections too.)

Being pragmatic, would it be enough for your sister to send photos on each visit? How does Executor 3 feel? 

Thank you for your response

This is a one off visit ( at the moment) specifically to remove clothes before we have an RICS valuation.My sister is at least an hour away, but nearer than me

Executor 3 is visiting the property on a regular basis and neighbours are attending the house daily

There are no valuables to speak of- we have a probate valuation of £2,500 for the contents

From our time as attorneys we have kept the gardener and the cleaner to maintain the property inside and out for the reasons you set out..I have been paying them and will reclaim from the estate in due course

Executor 3 has recently requested that the gardener and cleaner report each time they visit the property.I am minded to pass this responsibility ,including payments, to him.

Without taking legal advice I will proceed on the basis that an executors permission is sufficient to allow access to an unoccupied pre probate property.

dunroving

Daniel54 said:

Savvy_Sue said:

If your sister is not an executor, then I guess technically your co-executor may be correct, in that as executors you are responsible for the assets of the estate, but I'm not aware of any 'law' which would apply. 

I'd suggest that if they are so concerned, they attend with your sister, because a) you trust your sister and b) you are unable to accompany her on each visit. 

It may be that only one executor visit is necessary, to remove and secure valuables, leaving clothes etc for later disposal, but you will need to make regular inspections of the property. If you sister lives nearby, then she is ideally placed to carry these out, but again, does your co-executor trust her? If not, they know what they need to do. 

(We kept mum's gardener on after she died, to ensure the place didn't look deserted, and they carried out the inspections too.)

Being pragmatic, would it be enough for your sister to send photos on each visit? How does Executor 3 feel? 

Thank you for your response

This is a one off visit ( at the moment) specifically to remove clothes before we have an RICS valuation.My sister is at least an hour away, but nearer than me

Executor 3 is visiting the property on a regular basis and neighbours are attending the house daily

There are no valuables to speak of- we have a probate valuation of £2,500 for the contents

From our time as attorneys we have kept the gardener and the cleaner to maintain the property inside and out for the reasons you set out..I have been paying them and will reclaim from the estate in due course

Executor 3 has recently requested that the gardener and cleaner report each time they visit the property.I am minded to pass this responsibility ,including payments, to him.

Without taking legal advice I will proceed on the basis that an executors permission is sufficient to allow access to an unoccupied pre probate property.

So, currently there is a gardener entering the property, a cleaner entering the property, neighbours entering a property, and a co-executor entering the property, and there is nothing of value in the house? Yet you have concerns about your sister entering the property?

That doesn't make sense on the face of it. What does your co-executor think your sister will do that would cause a problem?

Regardless, in the context of the above, the solution seems to be that on this one occasion, the co-executor who is "bothered" can arrange to be there at the same time. His/her problem, not yours.

getmore4less

But I have some concerns  if the views of one executor might end up dictating how we three manage the probate process

I am reading this as 3 executors?

Not clear if the other 2 are family and close like kids or other

As there are ongoing expenses having a proper paper trail for the inventory and account is sensible.

That would need each of the gardening and cleaning visits documented so I can see why E3 is asking for this.

Don't forget executors can also claim expenses for any visits to deal with estate administration.
having the furthest away with the largest costs to visit is not good use of estate funds

For the clearance 
I would approach it from the list of jobs that need doing.

The initial inventory is best tackled by as many as can be in attendance
Often around funeral time and that could be executors, family, beneficiaries makes the job quicker  

presumably that has been done.

Clearing  contents for sell/dispose etc. can be broken down to tasks and allocated to individuals
(that might be doing or organising hiring someone)

Really only needs one person to do each batch of removal.

You already have people entering the property unaccompanied makes no sense to restrict a trusted family member.


Executor 3 is visiting the property on a regular basis
Why can't E3 attend 


This is a one off visit ( at the moment) specifically to remove clothes before we have an RICS valuation.My sister is at least an hour away, but nearer than me

Why does this need to be done before the valuation?
presumably as the place is getting cleaned regularly the are stored away. 


Best to try to keep things amicable and to stop it going off the rails if E3 take the hump.

Fall back is a vote of the 3 exec, majority rules.

As said the basic job is to secure the estate and liquidate/distribute.
In what way does E3 think allowing sis in to do some clearing is going to put that at risk?

Clearing clothes can be very emotional for close family especially as it is recommended to go through everything very carefully.


IME having done a few clear outs having someone that is not too emotionally attached along to help can be beneficial for those that are very close.
neighbours are attending the house daily
would one of them be a good candidate to help out or be on standby if it gets too much 

Is the plan for sis to remove back to her house to deal with later or to fully process on the day. 

Daniel54

Thanks to you both for your responses and there is nothing with which I fundamentally disagree

By way of background , executors 1 and 2 come from my side of her family and have known each other from childhood.Executor 3 is from her late husbands’s.side.She had no children,although my sister was as close to being a daughter that she could have had.

E3 refuses to allow his personal details to be released without individual explicit permission ( which he has refused on two occasions-to date ) so we are already contorting the probate process in this regard .We have acceded to this in the interest of harmony

i am dealing with the financial aspects.We are using a solicitor but I have had a to explain to E3 that we save the estate money if I use the information I already have from being an attorney and contact organisations myself.

I agree there is no need to clear the clothes before valuation,but my sister and I feel that these personal items should in any case be removed.The neighbour was a close friend,will attend  and can take what she wishes ,the balance will either go to charities or recycling.

in terms of the overall house clearance,our plan is to ask local estate agents if the property is  best presented furnished or unfurnished.Either way it will be a “doer upper “ but is in a very popular area in south west London.I reckon we are still  2 months from being able to submit the probate and paying provisional IHT 

My problem is the inference that my sister is somehow untrustworthy. This could not be further from my aunt’s intentions and although it might be easier to comply with E3,I am not prepared to accept that he might need to be downstairs in the sitting room

I have said I will go but traffic might be tricky

Each executor was left more than £5k in addition to other bequests to cover their costs,,so I am not minded to claim small costs involved in executing the estate 

dunroving

Daniel54 said:

Thanks to you both for your responses and there is nothing with which I fundamentally disagree

By way of background , executors 1 and 2 come from my side of her family and have known each other from childhood.Executor 3 is from her late husbands’s.side.She had no children,although my sister was as close to being a daughter that she could have had.

E3 refuses to allow his personal details to be released without individual explicit permission ( which he has refused on two occasions-to date ) so we are already contorting the probate process in this regard .We have acceded to this in the interest of harmony

i am dealing with the financial aspects.We are using a solicitor but I have had a to explain to E3 that we save the estate money if I use the information I already have from being an attorney and contact organisations myself.

I agree there is no need to clear the clothes before valuation,but my sister and I feel that these personal items should in any case be removed.The neighbour was a close friend,will attend  and can take what she wishes ,the balance will either go to charities or recycling.

in terms of the overall house clearance,our plan is to ask local estate agents if the property is  best presented furnished or unfurnished.Either way it will be a “doer upper “ but is in a very popular area in south west London.I reckon we are still  2 months from being able to submit the probate and paying provisional IHT 

My problem is the inference that my sister is somehow untrustworthy. This could not be further from my aunt’s intentions and although it might be easier to comply with E3,I am not prepared to accept that he might need to be downstairs in the sitting room

I have said I will go but traffic might be tricky

Each executor was left more than £5k in addition to other bequests to cover their costs,,so I am not minded to claim small costs involved in executing the estate 

Sounds like a Softly, Softly approach is needed. As much as E3 sounds like a bit of a kn0b, you don't want to give him reason to cause further ructions and impede progress. (In other words, rise above it). 

If he wants to be present, then on this occasion, I'd say let him be, and see how it goes. It doesn't matter what his attitude appears to imply about your sister's trustworthiness - who cares about the opinion of such a kn0b? I'm sure she cares a lot more about what YOU think - could you just explain the situation to her, and ask her to play along on this occasion?

His response to your compliance on this occasion will give you an idea of how he will be as you progress through other stages of executing the will. (And who knows, if he gets what he says he wants, he might well end up saying he can't make it to the house and she can go ahead without him). Sometimes what people like this say they want is just a way to exercise control.

getmore4less

As an executor it will become public record who they are.

If they want to act as executor they can't be anonymous when dealing with the estate.