Heating bill

Alnat1

Are you able to arrange a meeting of residents to discuss the matter and collect details of their usage for comparison?

matelodave

I think you need to get a delegation of residents to request sight of these heat meters to ensure that they are actually measuring the heating to each of the flats (and to the correct flats). You also need to determine what sort of meter and how and when it was calibrated. Bear in mind that if the meter is located a long distance from your flat then you'll end up paying for all the heat lost in the flow and return pipework between the meter and your flat which may be quite considerable.

I'm guessing that if the meters are located at a central point then there must be a flow and return pipe from a ginormous manifold to each flat via a bank of heat meters, each associated with a single flat. In which case you need to ensure that the meter thats associated with your flat actually is the one that they are using for your charging.

They frequently manage to mix up leccy meters with the wrong flats and so it wouldn't be beyond the wit to suspect that in a large block that heat meters get mixed up as well.

The alternative way is to pump the fluid around the building and each flat gets connected to the loop close to the flat with a heat meter either in a local service cupboard or actually in the flat where you should be able to read it yourself. The standing charge then pays for heat loss in the distribution pipework - thats how it works where my grandson lives but the meter is remotely read

My Bro lives with a district heating system and the heat meter is in his house where he can read it himself and I guess he sends in readings or has the meter read, just like leccy, gas or water.

chris_n

I know what I would do (Process Engineer) ,  but it's probably not something you could do yourself.
I would set up an ultrasonic flow meter and a temperature sensor connected to a data logger. Both of these are available as clamp on units that could be fastened to the feed pipes and have their outputs connected to a data logger.
As that route is probably not available to you then the questions are:
How old is the flat?
Are you the owner or a tenant?
What ventilation does it have? 
How can you be sure the meter corresponds to your flat? Have you been away in winter where you can see a reduction? 
If you own it where did the EPC come from and what does it say about insulation in walls and roof?
If you bought it from a developer you need to go back and ask how you can be using so much heat with such a good EPC. Same if you are renting, go to the landlord or agents. Get a temperature logging WiFi thermometer (amazon about £10 iirc) to prove you aren't keeping it at 25 degrees. 

amcc1

@danco - hang in there - we’re all still happily puzzling and scratching our heads on possible ways forward 

It’s likely that the meters ‘on the roof’ are connected to a building management system (BMS) and that the readings are logged at least every 24 hours. Maybe the management company could be persuaded to provide a week’s worth of daily reports to your tenant committee. This would help you gauge if the meters and flats are properly mapped. If the system was commissioned using plot numbers, then someone needs to know this when producing bills. …EVERY time.

I’m with @chris_n on setting up some datalogging if at all possible - even using a raspberry pi. There’s nothing like some 24 hour graphs to persaude property owners and developers (Mechanical & Electrical engineers) to concentrate on the issue. Above all, you need to encourage them into a position of transparency / working together to solve the problem.

A further question:

Does the hot air heating come through vents in your floors or do you have wall mounted units (like air conditioning)?

Good luck! Please report back on any outcomes.

macman

Can you not request access to the meter even if you have to be accompanied (they're presumably in a plant room or locked cupboard)?
Or at least request a photo of the meter?
What does your leasehold agreement say about access?

danco

The freeholders/management are still trying to understand the system after three years. They are meeting with the metering company shortly and we will then have a discussion with the residents.

At that point we can work out what the options are. Even having daily reports of usage rather than the monthly ones we have at present would be a great advance. If the meters are, as we are told, on the roof, I don't know what access would be possible - it certainly wouldn't be easy, whereas if they were in a locked cupboard we could ask for frequent access.

Thanks for the comment about plot numbers. I had forgotten that possibility, though it caused major problems with electricity. They could be wrong, so it's worth our checking, but I suspect that is a matter that has been dealt with.

Nothing in the lease about access. The official heat network regulations do refer to measuring and display but don't say anything about user's physical access to meters.

Heating/cooling comes from vents at ceiling height.

We are owners, and the building is around three years old. With the delay in commissioning the metering, we have only just received a full year of monthly billing, though last year we received a single bill covering ten months.

There have been a lot of suggestions that will help in general discussions. Thanks for those.

But not so much help in working out if the claimed usage for my flat is correct or not. I have checked that yesterday's temperature with heating switched off for twentyfour hours was 16.5 degrees, so that's a good figure to start from. And I had the temperature set to 19.5 degrees between 8 a.m. and 10 p.m. (and 14 degrees at night) for a 110 square meter surface area flat of EPC rating B. Communal heating and its pricing is evidently something that few people know about. Claimed usage for November was 1800 kWh, cost £280

[Deleted User]

danco said:

Communal heating and its pricing is evidently something that few people know about.

Nice way to slip in a passive-aggressive shut down to people trying to help you.  Congratulations.

chris_n

The measuring I suggested will tell you if the claimed usage is correct or not. As you are in discussion with the management why not suggest this as an option for a sanity check in one flat. For sure there will be a cost but that could come from the management payments.
Communal heating consumption etc is fairly straightforward as long as it is measured correctly, i.e. measuring flow rate and the temperature of the input AND return. 1kWh of heat coming in is 100% efficient just like electric heating.
By the way 19.5 for 14 hours a day is going to use quite a lot of heat.

ariarnia

i was half joking earlier but maybe one option is to turn off the heating for a month and use an oil filled radiator and heated throw. you'll have a high electric bill for the one month (tho £280 will get you a reasonable amount of heating for one room) and you will then KNOW if you get a bill for more than standing charge that there's something wrong with the metering system. 

matelodave

An alternative to having access to the metering display is CCTV which everyone could access from the comfort of their own mobile phone. Cameras are cheap and cheerful nowadays and use wifi, so there's no cabling involved, even one basic camera per meter wouldn't break the bank.

If as suggested  there is a centralised building management system, then it shouldn't be beyond the wit to provide each flat with much more granular and detailed data based on the BMS data logging network.

Try looking outside the box and working out alternatives rather than just accepting that it can't be done or its too expensive etc. A bit of research before you go to sort them out will forearm you and put them on the back foot.

TBH I'd even doubt that they are properly monitoring each flat, but I could be wrong. The only way to find out is to get a delegation to inspect their system and ask how each flat is monitored and how data is collected.

Ask them for an independent audit to justify how their system is set up and is accurately measuring and billing individual flats when it's impossible for anyone of their customers to verify it for themselves.