Practical/affordable electric cars?

CarolWHerts

And I should just add to my rather long post that the original motivation for getting a PHEV was resilience, as I needed to ensure I could make the regular 15 mile journey to my elderly parents even during times of fuel supply disruption. And then I noticed that the City of London police were using Golf GTEs so I thought if it was good enough for them.....

uknick

Bigwheels1111 said:

[Deleted User] said:

I'd try to go fully electric if you can, avoid hybrids. The problem with hybrids is you pay a premium to buy them, and then you have to maintain that petrol engine too. With an EV you greatly reduce your maintenance costs.

The charging infrastructure is much better than it used to be, and long journeys aren't a big problem now.

EV you greatly reduce your maintenance costs.

I have found that this is not so.

My friend MG ZS EV costs more than my Diesel to service for 5 years.

£805 Peugeot 5008 Diesel

MG £900.

I got him the quotes.

There seems to be something fishy about the EV service costs over the 5 years.  My main dealer 4 year service for my BMW i3 REX was just under £300.  That includes an oil change for the REX engine, brake fluid change, micro filter and the actual service labour (as far as I know that was just plugging in the diagnostic machine and resetting the service indicators).

Without the oil change it would have been about £150.   As the service is every 2 years, I'd expect the costs for the standard EV model to be about £500 over 6 years, allowing for some inflation.  

BikingBud

If running costs only consisted of servicing charges

You really need to consider whole life costs, purchase, potential resale, cost per mile covering all aspects and especially as VED will now come into effect.

We'll be sticking with a small zero rated petrol ICE for now, and the market seems to appreciate that as the used prices remain very strong.

benson1980

Nifty_Purse said:

My understanding is that all hybrid cars are very complicated technology, much more so than both ICE and electric-only engine vehicles. It doesn't surprise me that you have found manufacturers unable to give you reliable information on performance.

A quick search engine search suggests that the range for plug-in hybrids is 20-30 miles on the electric motor and even that seems to be best case scenario so I suspect that the range you're looking for just doesn't exist in hybrid cars.

Some surveys of hybrid car users have shown that they tend to end up using the electric part very little and essentially are driving the car no differently to an ICE vehicle the majority of the time.

So the question is do you really want an over complicated ICE vehicle that is likely to be less fuel efficient than the most efficient petrol car (two engines and a battery means a heavier car, the smaller the car size the more the increased weight will use up petrol/electric charge)? 
If you are looking for an affordable car I would be concerned about the following: is it more likely to breakdown? Will it need replacement parts more frequently than an ICE car? Can the replacement parts be obtained easily? If I end up driving it on the petrol engine am I burning through more petrol than I would in an equivalent ICE car?

I currently drive a car with a just less than 1 litre engine as soon as there is any weight added to the vehicle for example a passenger, any luggage or a full tank of petrol it is burning faster through fuel.  

For affordability and the environment it's better to use the most fuel efficient petrol secondhand car until small electric motor cars become available and more affordable.

Your understanding of hybrids....is lacking.

It is a frequently regurgitated yet incorrect assumption that hybrids are no more efficient than ICE for the majority of the time. We own one modern 1.0 [allegedly] fuel efficient car, and one 13 year old 1.8 hybrid. I do all servicing and basic repairs on them myself, and have done for 20 years, and the hybrid is without question the easiest and cheapest vehicle I have ever maintained, and we've had a few. The hybrid gets 55mpg- mostly driven on the motorway. The 1.0 petrol gets 38. The former is also exempt from road tax and very cheap to insure.

Petriix

benson1980 said:

Nifty_Purse said:

My understanding is that all hybrid cars are very complicated technology, much more so than both ICE and electric-only engine vehicles. It doesn't surprise me that you have found manufacturers unable to give you reliable information on performance.

A quick search engine search suggests that the range for plug-in hybrids is 20-30 miles on the electric motor and even that seems to be best case scenario so I suspect that the range you're looking for just doesn't exist in hybrid cars.

Some surveys of hybrid car users have shown that they tend to end up using the electric part very little and essentially are driving the car no differently to an ICE vehicle the majority of the time.

So the question is do you really want an over complicated ICE vehicle that is likely to be less fuel efficient than the most efficient petrol car (two engines and a battery means a heavier car, the smaller the car size the more the increased weight will use up petrol/electric charge)? 
If you are looking for an affordable car I would be concerned about the following: is it more likely to breakdown? Will it need replacement parts more frequently than an ICE car? Can the replacement parts be obtained easily? If I end up driving it on the petrol engine am I burning through more petrol than I would in an equivalent ICE car?

I currently drive a car with a just less than 1 litre engine as soon as there is any weight added to the vehicle for example a passenger, any luggage or a full tank of petrol it is burning faster through fuel.  

For affordability and the environment it's better to use the most fuel efficient petrol secondhand car until small electric motor cars become available and more affordable.

Your understanding of hybrids....is lacking.

It is a frequently regurgitated yet incorrect assumption that hybrids are no more efficient than ICE for the majority of the time. We own one modern 1.0 [allegedly] fuel efficient car, and one 13 year old 1.8 hybrid. I do all servicing and basic repairs on them myself, and have done for 20 years, and the hybrid is without question the easiest and cheapest vehicle I have ever maintained, and we've had a few. The hybrid gets 55mpg- mostly driven on the motorway. The 1.0 petrol gets 38. The former is also exempt from road tax and very cheap to insure.

The point that many of us make is that 55mpg isn't especially good because many modern diesels achieve that (or pretty close). I'd like to see the calculations for the total cost of ownership of a hybrid vs a fairly economical ICE. Hybrids are expensive to buy without the reduced running costs of an EV.

My previous car was a small diesel estate. £30 VED, 50mpg long term average, £500 per year average maintenance, £400 per year depreciation. 10k miles at current prices ~ £1600. Total ~ £2500 per year.

My current car is an MG5 EV. £0 VED (currently), 3.6 miles per kWh (meter to wheel) average, £80 per year maintenance, 0 depreciation (so far), £350 per year loan interest (decreasing as I pay off the capital), 10k miles at current Intelligent Octopus rates ~ £275. Total ~ £705 per year.

So current savings for an EV are around £1800 per year all in. What does that look like for a hybrid? How about a PHEV? Let's see some real world figures. 

In practice my charging is currently much cheaper as I have solar panels and my Go rate is still 5p. I also do some business miles which are claimed at 45p per mile against tax so actually make a profit. But, on the other hand, I know VED is coming and depreciation will eventually start to bite. 

benson1980

Petriix said:

benson1980 said:

Nifty_Purse said:

My understanding is that all hybrid cars are very complicated technology, much more so than both ICE and electric-only engine vehicles. It doesn't surprise me that you have found manufacturers unable to give you reliable information on performance.

A quick search engine search suggests that the range for plug-in hybrids is 20-30 miles on the electric motor and even that seems to be best case scenario so I suspect that the range you're looking for just doesn't exist in hybrid cars.

Some surveys of hybrid car users have shown that they tend to end up using the electric part very little and essentially are driving the car no differently to an ICE vehicle the majority of the time.

So the question is do you really want an over complicated ICE vehicle that is likely to be less fuel efficient than the most efficient petrol car (two engines and a battery means a heavier car, the smaller the car size the more the increased weight will use up petrol/electric charge)? 
If you are looking for an affordable car I would be concerned about the following: is it more likely to breakdown? Will it need replacement parts more frequently than an ICE car? Can the replacement parts be obtained easily? If I end up driving it on the petrol engine am I burning through more petrol than I would in an equivalent ICE car?

I currently drive a car with a just less than 1 litre engine as soon as there is any weight added to the vehicle for example a passenger, any luggage or a full tank of petrol it is burning faster through fuel.  

For affordability and the environment it's better to use the most fuel efficient petrol secondhand car until small electric motor cars become available and more affordable.

Your understanding of hybrids....is lacking.

It is a frequently regurgitated yet incorrect assumption that hybrids are no more efficient than ICE for the majority of the time. We own one modern 1.0 [allegedly] fuel efficient car, and one 13 year old 1.8 hybrid. I do all servicing and basic repairs on them myself, and have done for 20 years, and the hybrid is without question the easiest and cheapest vehicle I have ever maintained, and we've had a few. The hybrid gets 55mpg- mostly driven on the motorway. The 1.0 petrol gets 38. The former is also exempt from road tax and very cheap to insure.

The point that many of us make is that 55mpg isn't especially good because many modern diesels achieve that (or pretty close). I'd like to see the calculations for the total cost of ownership of a hybrid vs a fairly economical ICE. Hybrids are expensive to buy without the reduced running costs of an EV.

My previous car was a small diesel estate. £30 VED, 50mpg long term average, £500 per year average maintenance, £400 per year depreciation. 10k miles at current prices ~ £1600. Total ~ £2500 per year.

My current car is an MG5 EV. £0 VED (currently), 3.6 miles per kWh (meter to wheel) average, £80 per year maintenance, 0 depreciation (so far), £350 per year loan interest (decreasing as I pay off the capital), 10k miles at current Intelligent Octopus rates ~ £275. Total ~ £705 per year.

So current savings for an EV are around £1800 per year all in. What does that look like for a hybrid? How about a PHEV? Let's see some real world figures. 

In practice my charging is currently much cheaper as I have solar panels and my Go rate is still 5p. I also do some business miles which are claimed at 45p per mile against tax so actually make a profit. But, on the other hand, I know VED is coming and depreciation will eventually start to bite. 

I’m not suggesting a hybrid is better than EV. Indeed your figures for the EV are very interesting….

the hybrid mpg is comparible to a diesel. But petrol is 20p a litre cheaper at the moment. 

Grumpy_chap

benson1980 said:

The hybrid gets 55mpg- mostly driven on the motorway. The 1.0 petrol gets 38. The former is also exempt from road tax and very cheap to insure.

The experience with hybrid does seem to be very varied and particularly linked to the type of journeys.  This variance is not so marked with ICE.
I previously had a 2014 Auris Hybrid and achieved 43 mpg
I changed that to a 2007 1.6 petrol Focus and achieved 42 mpg
The Focus was pretty much bang on what the data sheet said I should achieve, the Auris far below the data sheet promises.
If the journey profile does not make good use of the battery support, then my experience was fuel economy no better than a standard petrol.
Others will have different experiences.

Petriix

benson1980 said:

Petriix said:

benson1980 said:

Nifty_Purse said:

My understanding is that all hybrid cars are very complicated technology, much more so than both ICE and electric-only engine vehicles. It doesn't surprise me that you have found manufacturers unable to give you reliable information on performance.

A quick search engine search suggests that the range for plug-in hybrids is 20-30 miles on the electric motor and even that seems to be best case scenario so I suspect that the range you're looking for just doesn't exist in hybrid cars.

Some surveys of hybrid car users have shown that they tend to end up using the electric part very little and essentially are driving the car no differently to an ICE vehicle the majority of the time.

So the question is do you really want an over complicated ICE vehicle that is likely to be less fuel efficient than the most efficient petrol car (two engines and a battery means a heavier car, the smaller the car size the more the increased weight will use up petrol/electric charge)? 
If you are looking for an affordable car I would be concerned about the following: is it more likely to breakdown? Will it need replacement parts more frequently than an ICE car? Can the replacement parts be obtained easily? If I end up driving it on the petrol engine am I burning through more petrol than I would in an equivalent ICE car?

I currently drive a car with a just less than 1 litre engine as soon as there is any weight added to the vehicle for example a passenger, any luggage or a full tank of petrol it is burning faster through fuel.  

For affordability and the environment it's better to use the most fuel efficient petrol secondhand car until small electric motor cars become available and more affordable.

Your understanding of hybrids....is lacking.

It is a frequently regurgitated yet incorrect assumption that hybrids are no more efficient than ICE for the majority of the time. We own one modern 1.0 [allegedly] fuel efficient car, and one 13 year old 1.8 hybrid. I do all servicing and basic repairs on them myself, and have done for 20 years, and the hybrid is without question the easiest and cheapest vehicle I have ever maintained, and we've had a few. The hybrid gets 55mpg- mostly driven on the motorway. The 1.0 petrol gets 38. The former is also exempt from road tax and very cheap to insure.

The point that many of us make is that 55mpg isn't especially good because many modern diesels achieve that (or pretty close). I'd like to see the calculations for the total cost of ownership of a hybrid vs a fairly economical ICE. Hybrids are expensive to buy without the reduced running costs of an EV.

My previous car was a small diesel estate. £30 VED, 50mpg long term average, £500 per year average maintenance, £400 per year depreciation. 10k miles at current prices ~ £1600. Total ~ £2500 per year.

My current car is an MG5 EV. £0 VED (currently), 3.6 miles per kWh (meter to wheel) average, £80 per year maintenance, 0 depreciation (so far), £350 per year loan interest (decreasing as I pay off the capital), 10k miles at current Intelligent Octopus rates ~ £275. Total ~ £705 per year.

So current savings for an EV are around £1800 per year all in. What does that look like for a hybrid? How about a PHEV? Let's see some real world figures. 

In practice my charging is currently much cheaper as I have solar panels and my Go rate is still 5p. I also do some business miles which are claimed at 45p per mile against tax so actually make a profit. But, on the other hand, I know VED is coming and depreciation will eventually start to bite. 

I’m not suggesting a hybrid is better than EV. Indeed your figures for the EV are very interesting….

the hybrid mpg is comparible to a diesel. But petrol is 20p a litre cheaper at the moment. 

Oh I don't doubt there's a reduction in running costs for a hybrid, I just doubt the total cost of ownership is better than ICE.

There are obviously other possible factors like ULEZs, BIK. And of course those low EV running costs depend on having home charging with a working/connected smart meter.

As ever, it's important to run the numbers for each individual use case. 

CoastingHatbox

BikingBud said:

If running costs only consisted of servicing charges

You really need to consider whole life costs, purchase, potential resale, cost per mile covering all aspects and especially as VED will now come into effect.

We'll be sticking with a small zero rated petrol ICE for now, and the market seems to appreciate that as the used prices remain very strong.

Also, if we actually have any concern about environmental emissions, whether or not an EV or even a plug-in hybrid is a better option is not that straight forward. On fully lifecycle emissions, EV and plug-in hybrids do not fare that well against conventional vehicles and for low mileage users, ICE may be the least worst option.

When taking into account the amount of fossil fuel still used to generate electricity, the mining of resources, as well as the manufacture and disposal, a Tesla Model S has to be driven 93,000 miles before it is beneficial over a Euro 6 Diesel in terms of CO2 emissions.

Low mileage users of vehicles relying on batteries may find themselves having batteries replaced in order to maintain capacity and range, before they've done anything like the mileage required to justify the use of the vehicle.

This is one of the reasons I won't be at the front of the queue to buy an EV. When I drive < 3,000 miles per year, it is an environmentally horrendous decision.


In respect to hiring vehicles, I did it for two years for a once a fortnight trip on account it was cheaper than buying my own car. I had no issues whatsoever with claims over damage.

Martyn1981

Goudy said:

I didn't say 90% of driving, but 90% of my commute.

My commute is around 30 to 40 minutes and in that time my current ICE car runs 100% of the time.
When I tested the Clio E Tech over the same trip, there and back and the car recorded the ICE was running for around 5 minutes each way.
I admit my trip is pretty specific, all stop start, 20 mph max speed limits but the car was still pretty impressive.

The ICE doesn't just kick in to power the cars wheels, it also starts for short bursts to recharge the battery alone or power the wheels and recharge the battery.

As it has two electric motors/generators and two batteries it has more options on how it powers the car and recharges the batteries depending on driving conditions.
It can regen brake and use short engine bursts to recharge at the same time and can use the ICE or EV motor independently or together.

It means it can, on these sort of trips drive on the electric motor and get it's energy from regen braking and short bursts from the ICE on recharge alone (not powering the wheels).
As the load on the engine is much smaller recharging the batteries than it would powering the wheels, it means the ICE only kicks in for very short bursts.

Out on more open roads, it does something similar.
The ICE runs for a while then drops out and then the car runs on the electric motor even at nation speed limits.
Sometime you can sense the ICE is powering the wheels, other times you sense the ICE is just topping up the batteries and you're still using the electric motor.

Drive hard and of course you can provoke it to start using it's motor options in a less than efficient way but that's the same with any petrol, diesel or EV.

I'm not saying it's the answer to everyones motoring needs, just that some self charging hydrids have moved on a bit and some manufacturers have stretched their abilites over what used to be available.

As the OP stated they were looking at Hybrids (Focus or Fiesta) something like the E Tech might be an option.
OK is won't do 40 miles on electric alone, but it's not really the big picture, it's how efficient the package is overall.

A plugin might do 40 or 50 miles on electric than 35 mpg once the battery is flat.
A modern selfcharging Hybrid might only do a mile or two on electric but overall it might average 60, 70 or 80 mpg. 

I get your points, but the term 'self charging hybrid' for HEV's that Toyota created isn't true. They are petrol powered.

Yes they are more efficienmt, and that's great, but all of the time you are driving in electric mode only, you are still driving on petrol, either from the engine charging the battery, or regen from momentum that goes back to petrol power (at some point). If you don't plug the car in (HEV v's PHEV), then all of your motive power has to come from petrol.

But as I said, better than an ICE, tries hard to drive more efficiently, and should have much better stationary capabilities than an ICE with stop/start kit.

The 'self charging hybrid' and 'we choose not to plug in' campaigns, didn't go down well outside of the UK, but somehow we kinda fell for them. I've got a couple of friends with HEV's (a Toyota and a Lexus), and they always cheerfully refer to them as one of those self charging hybrids ...... that'll be at the petrol pump then!