Euro Car Parks - Grace period?

Grizebeck

snores said:

I really want to avoid getting to the POPLA stage, the appeals are long and I know that they aren't always successful after putting in all the time and effort. Other than trying to get the landowner to cancel the PCN, would you say that this will inevitably head down the POPLA route?

Yes but its very easy

snores

Umkomaas said:

snores said:

I really want to avoid getting to the POPLA stage, the appeals are long and I know that they aren't always successful after putting in all the time and effort. Other than trying to get the landowner to cancel the PCN, would you say that this will inevitably head down the POPLA route?

It's easy with a hire car where the hire company has formally passed liability to the hirer. Read the NEWBIES FAQ Announcement, particularly the section covering hire/lease vehicles. 

There's nothing 'long' in a POPLA appeal that you need to construct for yourself. Most of the appeal points you need to make are already in the NEWBIES FAQ Announcement, third post, ready written for you. You just need to be good at copying and pasting. 

You need to do the reading to understand how to do all this. 

Yes the section in NEWBIES with Edna Bashers template appeals for hire/lease cars, I have had a look and was planning on appealing to ECP with that in the first instance. I've had a look at other people's ECP PCN's on here and unfortunately ECP sends POFA compliant PCNs. The only thing I hope is that they fail to send me the hire docs. But having said all that, Grizebeck above has said that this is very likely to be rejected by ECP anyway.

I've had a look at the POPLA info on NEWBIEs too - generally speaking I would normally not be fazed by having to do this, but I'm very pregnant and also in the middle of another one of these which is at court stage. I'm just trying to anticipate how long this may go on for and how capable I'll be in a couple of months to keep fighting this PCN

KeithP

snores said:

Umkomaas said:

snores said:

I really want to avoid getting to the POPLA stage, the appeals are long and I know that they aren't always successful after putting in all the time and effort. Other than trying to get the landowner to cancel the PCN, would you say that this will inevitably head down the POPLA route?

It's easy with a hire car where the hire company has formally passed liability to the hirer. Read the NEWBIES FAQ Announcement, particularly the section covering hire/lease vehicles. 

There's nothing 'long' in a POPLA appeal that you need to construct for yourself. Most of the appeal points you need to make are already in the NEWBIES FAQ Announcement, third post, ready written for you. You just need to be good at copying and pasting. 

You need to do the reading to understand how to do all this. 

The only thing I hope is that they fail to send me the hire docs.

That's almost a certainty.

I don't think I have ever seen it reported on here that a parking company has sent the hire docs.

Umkomaas

The only thing I hope is that they fail to send me the hire docs.

We have yet to see any PPC ever do this in the 10 years that PoFA has been in existence; even the highly admin efficient ParkingEye never comply. 

If ECP reject your appeal, POPLA will bounce it in your favour with little effort needed on your part (other than copying and pasting 90% of the appeal). But don't do any appeal to ECP until you receive the PCN Notice to Hirer. 

snores

KeithP said:

That's almost a certainty.

I don't think I have ever seen it reported on here that a parking company has sent the hire docs.

Is the lack of hire docs something that would win a POPLA appeal? From the searches I've done, these appeals are multi-faceted so in addition to that it would be poor signage, poor lighting, grace periods etc. I wonder if I can even appeal on some conditions considering the driver only stayed long enough to try and find an empty bay - it was during the day so poor lighting couldn't be argued. Poor signage perhaps depending on the route of entry to the carpark, but they didn't stay long enough to consider parking there.
I hope I can do the majority of the work on an appeal by the end of December because after that I really don't think I'll be able to. How long does POPLA take to make a decision? And if they reject it, I presume we go down the LBC/Court route etc? 

snores

Umkomaas said:

The only thing I hope is that they fail to send me the hire docs.

We have yet to see any PPC ever do this in the 10 years that PoFA has been in existence; even the highly admin efficient ParkingEye never comply. 

If ECP reject your appeal, POPLA will bounce it in your favour with little effort needed on your part (other than copying and pasting 90% of the appeal). But don't do any appeal to ECP until you receive the PCN Notice to Hirer. 

Yes I know I seem extra keen trying to get ahead of this  I will wait until I receive the PCN before I do anything. Like I said, it's the first time I've managed to catch a PCN as it's happening, rather than arguing for one that happened years ago, so I've only ever known how to argue at court stage and to write a Defence etc.
I would prefer not to pay these scammers £60 so if you're all quite confident that I would likely win at POPLA stage then I'll happily defer to your expertise(s)

Umkomaas

Poor signage perhaps depending on the route of entry to the carpark, but they didn't stay long enough to consider parking there.

Look at the last half a dozen pages of the POPLA Decisions Announcement near the top of the forum thread list and you will see a number of ECP failures on their signage. Read those, because you will need those cases in your head when you get to the POPLA stage. So that's PoFA (hire documentation) and Signage that are of immense help to you, both potentially winning appeal points.

I hope I can do the majority of the work on an appeal by the end of December because after that I really don't think I'll be able to.

You're unlikely to even have a response from ECP to your initial appeal by then - they have 35 days to consider then respond to you with a POPLA verification code.

Once you respond to POPLA with your appeal to them, they pass the appeal to ECP to consider and respond back to POPLA. They have 21 days to do that.

So you need to factor in that possible timescale into your expectations as to how quickly you can deal with this.

Grizebeck

Ecp never supply docs 

Coupon-mad

Is the lack of hire docs something that would win a POPLA appeal? 

Obviously that's 100% win.

The POPLA DECISIONS thread shows that, several times.

snores

Umkomaas said:

Poor signage perhaps depending on the route of entry to the carpark, but they didn't stay long enough to consider parking there.

Look at the last half a dozen pages of the POPLA Decisions Announcement near the top of the forum thread list and you will see a number of ECP failures on their signage. Read those, because you will need those cases in your head when you get to the POPLA stage. So that's PoFA (hire documentation) and Signage that are of immense help to you, both potentially winning appeal points.

I hope I can do the majority of the work on an appeal by the end of December because after that I really don't think I'll be able to.

You're unlikely to even have a response from ECP to your initial appeal by then - they have 35 days to consider then respond to you with a POPLA verification code.

Once you respond to POPLA with your appeal to them, they pass the appeal to ECP to consider and respond back to POPLA. They have 21 days to do that.

So you need to factor in that possible timescale into your expectations as to how quickly you can deal with this.

Thank you so much for your advice. After sleeping on it I've decided I'll fight this PCN despite the deadline on my end and I'll draft the POPLA appeal in the next couple of weeks so I have it ready to go when it's time to submit.
I'll wait to receive the PCN and confirm what times that ECP are saying but I'm hoping that with the lack of hire docs/PoFA, poor signage and obvious proof of parking in an adjacent carpark 4 minutes later, that it'll be straightforward to win this.

Coupon-mad said:

Is the lack of hire docs something that would win a POPLA appeal? 

Obviously that's 100% win.

The POPLA DECISIONS thread shows that, several times.

Thank you as always CP. I'll be looking at all the relevant POPLA threads and drafting my appeal in advance