Buying house with an elderly parent and another in care

StewyR77

Background:

My mother-in-law has dementia and is in residential care (Self-funded atm) she needs 24 monitoring for her mobility but is not too bad. The reason she is not at home is that the house is not suitable for her mobility (Zimmer) and her husband also has dementia and so is not able to care for her. The property they own, mortgage free, in Somerset is not counted towards care because he still lives there. 

My family (parents and 2 kids) live in Married Quarters in Cornwall and own a mortgaged house in Somerset, that is rented out to a tenant until Mat 23, at the earliest.

We are looking at two options:

1: Sell both houses and buy a bigger one with an annexe that we could move both parents in to, my wife would then take on their care. My concerns are what happens if one or both subsequently NEED to go in to care? Would it be considered delinquency of assets? How do we protect their investment but also our home? There are two other siblings to take inheritance etc into account.

2. Sell both houses and buy a bigger one with an annex for father-in-law to move in to and then move mother-in-law to a care home closer to the house. If we liquidate their house, will it have to go towards her care or will the occupied rules for their house apply? what happens if he subsequently needs to go in to care or passes away with regards to their funding?

We want to help them to be happy, have the best care but also want to protect their finances and our home. I've seen a number of similar issues with 1 parent but this seems a bit more complex and with the addition of a potential move of councils could get even more so. 

Keep_pedalling

The danger here is that the LA will almost certainly treat this as deliberate deprivation of assets if they sell the house without buying another in there own name then the proceeds of that sale will no longer be disregarded as far as self funding assessment is concerned, so neither of those options is a realistic prospect.

I would also be concerned for your wife, taking on the caring role for one parent with dementia is daunting enough but two is frankly going to be a nightmare for her.

Have they set up lasting powers of attorney? If so their attorneys only have the authority to act in their best interest, and neither proposal fits that definition. If not that needs to be sorted out as a matter of urgency if either of them still has sufficient capacity to do so, otherwise you will need to look at applying for deputyship.

lincroft1710

Looking after 2 adults with dementia and (depending on their ages) 2 children is not exactly a walk in the park. It is quite likely both parents will need to go into care sooner than later.


You cannot "protect their finances" if they need to go into care.

Brie

Chances are you are still going to need assistance with caring even if they are both living with you.  MiL will need showers etc and so will FiL at some point too.  And changing clothes, incontinence pads, cutting nails, feeding etc.  Everything you/she do for kids but going backwards.  Are you/she comfortable with that?  Home care is available but is itself something to manage.

You could (assuming you have Power of Attorney given they have dementia) sell their home and sell yours and move in together.  This will definitely be considered deprivation of assets if the house is not also in their name.  Chances are you won't be able to get a mortgage unless the house is considered to be 100% yours.  In this case your parents would have to gift you whatever amount is needed to buy the house.   The local authority will consider this suspicious so do keep a very exact account of what happens with money.

The only time the LA will be involved is if they need to fund anything whether it is in home care or when/if they need to move out to a care home.  They won't get too upset if you are all living together but as soon as one or the other moves to a care home they need to pay for things become difficult.  The LA may decide that you should sell the home (yes, making you homeless) or they may agree to put a lien on the house so that if/when you sell they get their cut.  

If you decide to proceed (we did btw) it may be best to get a home large enough to have everyone in the same place rather than the parents in an annex.  This may make it easier to listen out for problems.  With us it was just MiL and we found a place that had a large bedroom, 2 lounges (so we had one and she had her own), bathroom with walk in shower and kitchen and dining room all on the ground floor with additional bedrooms and full bathroom upstairs.  I was considering getting a baby monitor to help out with listening during the night but MiL was noisy enough to not actually need one.  

I assume that the parents are receiving state pension and maybe occupational or personal pensions as well.  To help them handle this you may want to set up their accounts as joint with you or get third party authority on their accounts if that is easier.  If they don't have PoA set up already for you to assist it may be sufficient to get third party authority if dad is well enough to be talked through that.  MiL was much more lucid earlier in the day so you might need to aim for that.  

Once they are living with you - again keep strict accounts of how you are handling their money.  LA had no issues with MiL paying towards living costs at a set amount.  They also seemed to discount that where she had accounts joint with the OH that they considered only half of what was in those accounts to be hers which made things flexible.  I had TPA on another of her accounts and if we bought anything for her (clothes, bed linen, holiday, etc) I paid for those from my credit card and deducted the exact same amount from her account - made it easier to track back if needed. (very rare).

Sorry for the long ramble - do come back and ask me any questions as it sounds like you are trying for exactly what we did just a few years back.

StewyR77

lincroft1710 said:

Looking after 2 adults with dementia and (depending on their ages) 2 children is not exactly a walk in the park. It is quite likely both parents will need to go into care sooner than later.


You cannot "protect their finances" if they need to go into care.

Thanks for the reply.

We know caring for them won’t be easy but they are currently more than able to live with supervision rather than medical care. While this might/probably will change, right now Mil is missing our family, as we’ve always been close and FiL is missing MiL.


When I said protect their finances that wasn’t a euphemism for not pay for care. It was to ensure the money put in by them is still theirs.

Brie

StewyR77 said:

When I said protect their finances that wasn’t a euphemism for not pay for care. It was to ensure the money put in by them is still theirs.

That's where keeping good accounts comes into play.  

StewyR77

Brie said:

Chances are you are still going to need assistance with caring even if they are both living with you.  MiL will need showers etc and so will FiL at some point too.  And changing clothes, incontinence pads, cutting nails, feeding etc.  Everything you/she do for kids but going backwards.  Are you/she comfortable with that?  Home care is available but is itself something to manage.

You could (assuming you have Power of Attorney given they have dementia) sell their home and sell yours and move in together.  This will definitely be considered deprivation of assets if the house is not also in their name.  Chances are you won't be able to get a mortgage unless the house is considered to be 100% yours.  In this case your parents would have to gift you whatever amount is needed to buy the house.   The local authority will consider this suspicious so do keep a very exact account of what happens with money.

The only time the LA will be involved is if they need to fund anything whether it is in home care or when/if they need to move out to a care home.  They won't get too upset if you are all living together but as soon as one or the other moves to a care home they need to pay for things become difficult.  The LA may decide that you should sell the home (yes, making you homeless) or they may agree to put a lien on the house so that if/when you sell they get their cut.  

If you decide to proceed (we did btw) it may be best to get a home large enough to have everyone in the same place rather than the parents in an annex.  This may make it easier to listen out for problems.  With us it was just MiL and we found a place that had a large bedroom, 2 lounges (so we had one and she had her own), bathroom with walk in shower and kitchen and dining room all on the ground floor with additional bedrooms and full bathroom upstairs.  I was considering getting a baby monitor to help out with listening during the night but MiL was noisy enough to not actually need one.  

I assume that the parents are receiving state pension and maybe occupational or personal pensions as well.  To help them handle this you may want to set up their accounts as joint with you or get third party authority on their accounts if that is easier.  If they don't have PoA set up already for you to assist it may be sufficient to get third party authority if dad is well enough to be talked through that.  MiL was much more lucid earlier in the day so you might need to aim for that.  

Once they are living with you - again keep strict accounts of how you are handling their money.  LA had no issues with MiL paying towards living costs at a set amount.  They also seemed to discount that where she had accounts joint with the OH that they considered only half of what was in those accounts to be hers which made things flexible.  I had TPA on another of her accounts and if we bought anything for her (clothes, bed linen, holiday, etc) I paid for those from my credit card and deducted the exact same amount from her account - made it easier to track back if needed. (very rare).

Sorry for the long ramble - do come back and ask me any questions as it sounds like you are trying for exactly what we did just a few years back.

Thank you for the advice.

we do have LPA for both and will look at having them in the house rather than an Annexe.

I’m already managing the finances and keep strict records on everything just in case but I totally agree on that.

km1500

The only time the LA will start looking at finances and possible deprevation of assets is when/if you claim means-tested allowances

Otherwise you are free to do what you want.

lincroft1710

StewyR77 said:

lincroft1710 said:

Looking after 2 adults with dementia and (depending on their ages) 2 children is not exactly a walk in the park. It is quite likely both parents will need to go into care sooner than later.


You cannot "protect their finances" if they need to go into care.

Thanks for the reply.

We know caring for them won’t be easy but they are currently more than able to live with supervision rather than medical care. While this might/probably will change, right now Mil is missing our family, as we’ve always been close and FiL is missing MiL.


.

I know from experience that people with dementia can go downhill very quickly. Although FIL and MIL miss one another at the moment, in a year's time  one (or even both) may not recognise the other. You say you can't sell the rented house until at least May, if the tenants play hardball and refuse to leave you could be looking at a further 6 months before you can get them out. So you could be looking at a year before you could actually contemplate moving.


I'm sorry but I can't think of a suitable, viable Option 3

youth_leader

I'm so very very sorry.  My friend's husband has vascular dementia. and it is progressing very quickly now.  Although he can still 'see', at his recent optician's appointment he was registered as blind,  as he can no longer recognise things. His mobility and his sleep patterns are also greatly affected. Before you make any decisions you might like to look at the Alzeimer's website, the carer's section might be useful to you.  Understanding and supporting a person with dementia | Alzheimer's Society (alzheimers.org.uk).

YoungBlueEyes

I looked after my father for years when he started going down hill. Not dementia though, just general old age. It was heart-breaking, back-breaking, and relentless. I can't imagine how hard it would be with dementia in the mix, and then for 2 people too. Plus children? 

I would be making sure I'd read as much as I could from people that have done this, and very very carefully considering my options.