New storage heaters vs Sunflow

wittynamegoeshere

FirebirdMD said:

I do have a small portable heater which came with my previous flat, I'm sure it's inefficient but as someone has said above, that doesn't matter as much with instant electric heat.

It will be pretty much 100% efficient, you're still spouting electric radiator salesman speak!  All energy ends up somewhere, it's not possible for a heater to consume electricity without turning it into heat*.  It might be basic, perhaps it may be ugly or cheap looking but it definitely won't be inefficient.

The only difference between storage heaters and instant ones is that the storage ones consume electricity while it's cheaper.  They all turn electricity into heat, the storage ones just aim to delay the release of the heat into the room, some are better at this than others.  But they're all 100% efficient.

* For the sake of accuracy, a tiny amount may become sound or light, but it's utterly negligible, and these usually become heat anyway.

06Russ

Do we think that economy 7 tariffs will still be around for a long time? I wouldn’t want to buy new storage heaters and be left without the tarrif. Also sorry if hijacking the thread a bit but I felt all the queries I have are probably relevant to the OP too as we seem to be in the same situation.

wittynamegoeshere

It's possible that "economy 7" may vanish at some time but highly likely that off-peak power will remain cheaper in some form, via the smart meter.  It may even be "smart" in future, i.e. where the supplier offers your radiators energy at whatever price based on overall demand and your radiator decides whether to use it or not, based on your needs.

There's no harm in having the separate E7 wiring for off-peak use, the worst case is that it will just need connecting to the always-on supply in future if smart heaters replace them, which would be a fairly small task for an electrician.

EssexHebridean

06Russ said:

Thanks for the advice, just looking into it so won’t rush into a decision either way. My storage heaters are probably 18 years old with just the input and output dials, no temp settings or timer. I have the input on 2 out of 6 and the output on 1 all day. Also not sure how long economy 7 plans will be around for so I wouldn’t want to replace with new storage heaters to then not be able to have economy 7. Maybe it will be an option forever though, I’m far from an expert! On the face of it replacing 3200kw heaters with say a 1500kw saves money but as you say it depends on your plan, hours used, heat you actually need. Also being on economy 7 makes sense in winter but I use no energy at night all summer, I guess most are in the same boat though. Ruled out sunflow and the like because I can’t see anyway I would make the outlay back.

Right - time to switch your thinking then, assuming that your system switches the whole property to off peak rates overnight? What else is there that you can do/run overnight? In summer pretty much all our showers are on the off peak rate - it’s more challenging in the winter once the clocks have changed but weekday ones usually still hit the pre-7am zone. We also have an immersion heater for water - that defaults to running on the off peak anyway - in winter it is just left on, on timer, in summer we usually fully heat it on a Sunday, and most of the rest of the week it just gets 20 minutes first thing to give enough temperature for face washing and washing up. We use timers to make sure the washing machine and dishwasher run on the off peak rate too - we time it so that they run on the later end of the cheaper period so we’re in a lighter sleep pattern by then just in case there are any issues, although WM’s and DW’s are safer to use like this than tumble driers. We run our dehumidifier overnight where we can too.  The more you can load shift to the off peak period, the better use you’re making of the E7 tariff, we run at around 75% overnight use. 

It does sound like your older heaters might well just be past their best - the older ones aren’t the best insulated to start with and as I understand it that insulation does break down over time too. We have 4 installed - a small “box of bricks” Dimplex in the bedroom which was replaced a few years ago as an insurance against seriously cold weather but rarely gets used. A bigger version of the same in the front room - that had the input set about half way last night and the output fully closed and is still chucking out a good level of heat now. A truly ancient Creda model - it looked ancient when we moved in nearly 20 years ago - that is still good and got relocated from the hallway a few years ago - again that one rarely gets used. The hallway one was replaced with a Dimplex Quantum - one of the new generation of High Heat Retention NSH’s people talk about. A different beast entirely - because it is FAR better insulated and it has the ability to run its heat output on a timer it’s more economical to use - less input is needed because it gives the heat when it’s needed it, and it loses very little while it’s charging overnight so it’s not fighting against that too. We’ve been impressed enough that we’re now considering replacing the front room one with one of the same. 

One thing we have found useful to have learned - it is far harder to heat up a place heated by storage heaters from cold than it is with GSH. Because you can’t get that instant “on demand” blast of heat, if you let the temperature fall too low before you put the heating on,  it can take several days to get to a comfortable temperature. Similarly we’re learned that if just going away for a couple of nights, it’s not worth turning the heaters down too much - more than that and it can be - but even if we’re away for a week or more in the colder weather we’ll only turn down, not completely off. It takes a couple of days for thr heaters to really start working to full effect when they are first charged from cold. 

06Russ

Thanks for all the advice,  I am in a very old building with single glazing so understand I’m fighting a bit of a loosing battle keeping the heat in whatever I have. I do have a dehumidifier which is great though. Looking at the quantum 1.5kw it the input rating is 3300kw so assuming it’s using 3.3 units of electricity per hour when charging all be it at the cheaper night rate. I think an upgrade with a timer on it would help a lot though.

EssexHebridean

I’d investigate “secondary glazing” as well if I were you. 

wittynamegoeshere

EH appears to be the world's biggest storage heater fan.  They can make sense for some, but are definitely not the answer for everyone.

Working full time is an issue, as it may have heated up almost a day ago by the time you want to use it.

Most people don't want to alter their lifestyle to suit their tariff, e.g. by having showers in the night.  We briefly had a variable tariff, it was extremely annoying.

Also don't forget that you usually pay a higher daytime rate as part of the deal, so everything other than heat will cost more.

We're currently using single rate electricity to provide all our heat.  We'll get a heat pump eventually but it's tolerable for now.  We spent just over £10 yesterday, and that included two huge loads of washing and drying.  £300 a month in the cold weather seems pretty reasonable to me, especially considering that the total investment in our heating "system" (plug in freestanding radiators and an electric fire) has been about £200 in all.

But by the sounds of it, getting the place up to modern standards would be a very sensible place to start.  Single glazing is almost unheard of these days.  If it's your place then it's definitely worth investing in, you'll get your money back within a few years.  If it's rented then your landlord is probably legally obliged to spend some money on it, if not then nobody's nailed to the floor where they happen to currently live.

06Russ

I would like to get secondary glazing, unfortunately due to the size and unusual shape of the windows this would be extremely costly. I think I may upgrade my old storage heaters with the dimplex quantum’s and stick to economy 7 but will keep looking into it. I am still using between 23-28 units a night with two storage heaters on the minimum setting.

macman

It's completely barking to prioritise replacing the entire heating system, over improving the insulation. What are the comparative costs?
You could at least start with d/glazing the most commonly used rooms, leaving bedrooms etc until later.

06Russ

It’s an old converted school with extremely large oddly shaped windows so the cost is not doable anytime in the near future unfortunately. Some windows are also listed so cannot be changed to double glazing.