Building regs on old extension

SJW1510

Hi,

We recently bought a property which originally had a store/outhouse to the side. At some point a large garage was built to the side of that, and more than 20 years ago the whole lot was converted to a habitable extension (complete with bathroom). 

The house was sold at a price which reflected this extra habitable space - but it now turns out there was never any building regs approval. (Yes, solicitor screwed up but it's a bit too late to revisit this - it's all very complicated).

We need to do some work on this side extension but that will require building regs sign-off. We have been reliably informed that they won't sign off the new part of the build without also checking the existing build - and it's very dubious whether the existing build will pass. 

The ex-store/outhouse bit could do with being rebuilt and we have the funds to cover this. However, the ex-garage area is really large and there's just no way we can afford to get this rebuilt too. 

We plan on getting a new warm roof for the whole lot incl the old garage and we're going to renovate the ex/store room/outhouse (bathroom needs replacing and insulation needs improving). Ideally I'd like to knock down a large part of the old outhouse and rebuild it - but that means building regs checks.....and therein lies the problem.

An engineer has said to us that they aren't sure whether the foundations on the ex-garage part will pass. It's double-brick and will have new roof, but I have no idea about the foundations. The last owners moved in 2005 and said it was all extended way before they were there, so 20 years+ ago?

The whole building is rock-solid, no cracking and very secure so I've got no concerns about it falling down. I don't especially care about getting building regs approval because this will be a long-term, potentially forever home. However, it does limit what we can do to the side extension if the whole lot has to pass building regs checks. 

Can anyone provide any insight please?

Also, if we have to get building regs out for the main house (we're adding a brand new bathroom and moving the kitchen across the house) - will they insist on checking/approving the side extension too? It's set up as an annexe with a separating door from the main house if that makes a difference. 

Would be so grateful for any advice. Sorry for the length of this post! 

SJW1510

@Doozergirl - I'm not sure if you would be able to comment on this? On previous posts you seem really knowledgeable! Thank you. 

Bendy_House

This will be interesting. Doozer &S62, amongst others, will likely have good info.

Just a side point - if you HAD known/realised* that BR hadn't signed this off, then the common response is to insist the seller takes out an indemnity policy against any future action (action which is very unlikely anyway). So, I wonder if YOU can do this NOW, for yourself? No idea.

I 'suspect' you'll be ok, since when BR work is carried out on part of a house, there is no requirement to upgrade the rest of the house, or else that would simply be prohibitive for the vast majority of situations (some exceptions to that, such as if you remove a %-age of render, roof, etc, but chances are your bits will be under this?) 

And the founds - clearly these as good enough for the garage and outbuildings, and you aren't adding a further storey? Worst case, and unlikely, would be a test dig.

*What did the seller reply to the Q's in the SIP regarding 'Build regs' and 'Planning'? I presume they either lied or pled ignorance?

An awake conveyancer should have noticed the conversion of these outbuildings, surely, and have made a point of asking you to check them, or asked these Q's of the vendor themselves, surely? But 'how' lax they were, from a possibly liable pov, I don't know.

Good luck.

Doozergirl

I've never seen building control interested in anything other than what they're being brought into inspect.  Remember that most houses were built without regs sign off as they predate them.   I've never seen building control interested in the foundations of a conversion even when we're carrying them out.  

If you are upgrading what is there, they should be happy.  On the application form I would put "improvements and upgrades to existing xyz" garage conversion, side extension, whatever you're calling it.   

I don't think LA inspectors are interested in enforcement at all - in over 17 years on these boards I have never read a post about actual enforcement and we ourselves have always been able to improve things and get sign-off with no arguments.  

However,  "Approved" (independent) building inspectors are not local authority, so have no powers to enforce against previous misdemeanours.    I would hire an approved inspector in your case.  If they see anything truly terrible then they may ask you to upgrade it, but that's going to be in your own interests - it sounds like you only want to do the right thing by the house.  

Section62

SJW1510 said:

An engineer has said to us that they aren't sure whether the foundations on the ex-garage part will pass. It's double-brick and will have new roof, but I have no idea about the foundations. The last owners moved in 2005 and said it was all extended way before they were there, so 20 years+ ago?

The whole building is rock-solid, no cracking and very secure so I've got no concerns about it falling down. I don't especially care about getting building regs approval because this will be a long-term, potentially forever home. However, it does limit what we can do to the side extension if the whole lot has to pass building regs checks.

If you are carrying out major works such as replacing the roof then it is necessary to check that this won't cause problems with the walls and the roof.  If the designer has no idea what the foundations are like, but has reason to believe they are more 'outbuilding' style rather than designed for habitable rooms, then this would be something that needs looking at in more detail.

It also isn't just a problem with increasing the weight of the roof. Altering the roof from say a flat roof to a vaulted one also changes the way in which loads act on the walls and foundations.

A designer would be negligent if they didn't consider how significant changes to the roof might impact on other parts of the structure - and to an extent the role of building regulations in that situation is to make sure the potential impacts have been identified and thought through.

SJW1510 said:

Also, if we have to get building regs out for the main house (we're adding a brand new bathroom and moving the kitchen across the house) - will they insist on checking/approving the side extension too? It's set up as an annexe with a separating door from the main house if that makes a difference.

Typically the need for approval/signoff only applies to what you are changing and anything directly affected by the changes.  Work to move a kitchen in the main house is unlikely to have any relevance to an existing extension in terms of structure, but could for example have some relevance if it changed the requirements for means of escape in the event of fire.

If you are thinking about not bothering with building regs approval/signoff for the current work then bear in mind the problems that obvious alterations without paperwork can cause when you come to sell the property.  You suggest it is potentially a forever home, but people's plans do change.  Also it is now much easier for buyers to find evidence of when changes were made (e.g. streetview) to challenge vendor's vague 'before my time' claims.

SJW1510

Doozergirl said:

I've never seen building control interested in anything other than what they're being brought into inspect.  Remember that most houses were built without regs sign off as they predate them.   I've never seen building control interested in the foundations of a conversion even when we're carrying them out.  

If you are upgrading what is there, they should be happy.  On the application form I would put "improvements and upgrades to existing xyz" garage conversion, side extension, whatever you're calling it.   

I don't think LA inspectors are interested in enforcement at all - in over 17 years on these boards I have never read a post about actual enforcement and we ourselves have always been able to improve things and get sign-off with no arguments.  

However,  "Approved" (independent) building inspectors are not local authority, so have no powers to enforce against previous misdemeanours.    I would hire an approved inspector in your case.  If they see anything truly terrible then they may ask you to upgrade it, but that's going to be in your own interests - it sounds like you only want to do the right thing by the house.  

Thanks very much @Doozergirl - that's very interesting! We're actually using a modular extension company to extend out of the back of the annexe/side extension. There's been a rickety old conservatory there for years but we've demolished that and we're replacing it with a modular extension which will ultimately be a kitchen. 

We wanted to knock through from this new extension to the living room/snug area which is situated in the ex-store room/outhouse part in the middle. The modular firm has said that because the front end of the snug and possibly the large attached bedroom (the ex-garage) won't pass building regs, they can't open it up. There are currently external doors on the snug and they're saying the presence of the external doors means that building regs won't apply to the rest of the build. They say that if the wall was opened up and an RSJ put in (which was the original plan) then building regs will want to assess the whole of the annexe and not just the back where the steel and the extension are. 

The difficulty we have is that we don't have the funds to knock down the whole annexe extension and start over and it would leave mum/stepdad homeless. We had a level 3 survey when it was purchased and structurally nothing was amiss - it's not about to fall down and we're not building any more onto it. We knew the roof was knackered and the front needed better insulation and that's all costed in. 

It's a tricky move - mum needs some care (she has cerebral palsy), I've got two disabled kids and work F/T (self employed) so selling both houses and renvoating this one house to provide separate living accommodation that's side by side seemed like the best option. I have zero experience in any of this so I'm trying to learn everything as I go! I'm as confident as I can be that the building is sturdy and not about to fall down. 

If I got a builder to knock through and put an RSJ in afterwards, building regs would have to come out again, wouldn't they? I think the modular building company use the LA's inspectors (but I will check) - I don't think there's the option to use an approved inspector only. Does the knock through sound as if it would mean that the whole of the annexe extension would be subject to building regs? 

Doozergirl

What worries me here is that the description here sounds exactly how everyone on the board describes the issue with conservatories.  A conservatory is fine alone, but as soon as you attempt open it up to the house it all needs to comply to the regs for an extension, which the average conservatory cannot do.  

I've never had the conversation the other way around where the existing building is considered to let the extension down.  We know already that older houses don't meet current regs - it's the extension that needs to meet them, not the house.  The house could have zero insulation and still
be fine to be opened up into a compliant extension.  

If this were me carrying out the build, I'd be ensuring that you got exactly what you need and that if you wanted the space open, you got it.  There's no such thing as 'can't be done'. 

Are you absolutely positive that the proposed modular extension is fully compliant with the building regulations for an extension?  and that they're not using the exemption that applies to conservatories as long as the thermal break is kept in place? 

I really need details of your house - floorplans, photos to get my head around this.   How old is the side extension?  Is it possible that it predates the building regulations, introduced in 1986?  

What is the spec of your modular build?  Do you know what the uvalues are, for example?  

SJW1510

Thanks for the reply @Doozergirl.  The total size of the extension is 51.4 metres so it's had to go through planning (we also had a convenant on it that said planning permission was required for any changes). It's an ex-council property that moved into private ownership in 1982. 

The extension is essentially in two parts - one part to extend the main house, the other to extend the annexe. It's the annexe which is the issue. The annexe is attached to the main house but it's essentially an old store/attached outhouse plus a garage that's been used as a habitable space for donkey's years. 

I'm completely confident the modular company are fully compliant. The extension to the main house will have a wall knocked through so the thermal break obvs will no longer be in place. That was originally the plan with the annexe extension part too until they raised the issue of the front of the annexe not meeting building regs. 

Their schedule shows the building regs inspector coming in at various points to check the different elements as they're constructed. 

The company I'm using are Offpod. I've had a ton of info through from them - I need to look and find the U values again, I know we've had them at some point. This is them https://www.off-pod.co.uk/post/insulated-garden-rooms - they seem really rigorous and one of the directors is an engineer who is very keen to make sure everything is compliant and done properly. It may be that he's being over-cautious about saying that they can't knock through. He was happy to knock through in the annexe until he did a site visit and noticed that the front of the annexe won't pass building regs (and there were question marks about the second part of the annexe (the old garage). 

The part of the annexe which is going to be the snug/bathroom/kitchen is made up from this new extension plus the old outhouse. This was part of the original build back in 1960 I believe as all the houses in the street have it. I think it was originally like a store room/outhouse type thing. The second larger room was built later and initially a garage but then converted with the store room to be the annexe. I don't know when this was built - I suspect definitely before 2000 but could potentially go back before 1986. How would I find this out? I don't believe there have been any planning applications or building regs applications. They were supposed to get permission because of the covenant but we were told to get an indemnity to cover this by our conveyancing solicitor (the irony that it was the convenant they picked up and not the building regs!!)

I'm fairly new to this forum so not sure if I'm allowed to post photos yet - I'll see if I can do it on a separate comment here. 

SJW1510

 This is the floorplan prior to the extension - you can see the door on the left kitchen wall - everything to the left of this is the extension. The lean-to space here is being replaced by a modular extension. Mum doesn't want it any larger than this. 

SJW1510

Here's a couple of older photos of the side annexe. One thing I haven't mentioned is that the ex garage (marked as Bedroom 1 on the floorplan) is about a foot or so higher than the reception room/shower room/lean to. Not sure if that's relevant or not with ref to how it was built? 

FreeBear

Doozergirl said: I've never had the conversation the other way around where the existing building is considered to let the extension down.  We know already that older houses don't meet current regs - it's the extension that needs to meet them, not the house.  The house could have zero insulation and still

be fine to be opened up into a compliant extension.

It might be possible that Building Control suggests improving the insulation levels of the walls in the old extension. If it is practical to do so without incurring huge costs, adding extra insulation is worthwhile. Depending on wall construction, 65mm of insulated plasterboard could well satisfy BC.

That said, ignore what the extension company says. Let BC guide you - It is unlikely that they will want additional work done on the existing structure or even be interested in it.