No Landlord maintenance of hardwood original victorian windows

Feebs77

Hi there,

There are 2 flats in my block that form a semi detached victorian house.

I'm a leaseholder of the flat below. My windows were replaced by the previous owner and are generally fine.

The flat above is council tenanted, and their windows are original sash single pane victorian windows, and do not appear to have been painted for at least 20 years.

Added to this, the tenants keep the bottom pane of the sash windows open in driving rain - causing damp to my walls below - and they do not replace the smaller panes of glass when they go missing.  

I have spoken to the tenants upstairs, and they have said they have an ongoing application for new windows - which they are unlikely we will get new windows any time soon.

My problem is, I don't think they need new windows. Their windows just need maintenance, and keeping them in good order by closing the bottom sash when it's raining, or getting the missing panes of glass replaced.

Question - if these windows aren't maintained or have been treated negligently by the tenants, with no sanding down and repainting every 10 years or so, and not being kept shut in torrential rain - is it then reasonable for me to have to share the bill for their replacement in 10 years time?


Appreciate your thoughts on the best way to resolve the problem!

user1977

They could well be rotten, with the rain getting in through the outer sills etc - so not sure having the windows open is necessarily the problem (though it won't help!).

eddddy

• Does your lease say that the freeholder is responsible for the window frames in the building, and therefore you have to contribute to window replacement costs for the other flat?

• Or does your lease say that flat owners are responsible for window frames, and therefore it is 100% the council's responsibility?  (Some leases say one thing, other leases say the other.) 

• The law says that service charges (i.e. maintenance costs) must be reasonable. If the freeholder is responsible for the window frames, and they haven't maintained them - it's probably not reasonable to charge you more as a result of their failure to maintain them. So you could challenge the extra costs at a tribunal.

• If you have told the upstairs tenant about the damp problem resulting from leaving the windows open - but they still leave them open - they are probably being negligent. So the tenant would probably be liable for any damage that results.

• Similarly, if the missing glass is causing dampness damage to your flat, and you have told the tenant and the council - but they haven't done anything - either the tenant and/or the council is being negligent. So one of them would probably be liable for any damage that results.

Feebs77

eddddy said:

• Does your lease say that the freeholder is responsible for the window frames in the building, and therefore you have to contribute to window replacement costs for the other flat?

• Or does your lease say that flat owners are responsible for window frames, and therefore it is 100% the council's responsibility?  (Some leases say one thing, other leases say the other.) 

• The law says that service charges (i.e. maintenance costs) must be reasonable. If the freeholder is responsible for the window frames, and they haven't maintained them - it's probably not reasonable to charge you more as a result of their failure to maintain them. So you could challenge the extra costs at a tribunal.

• If you have told the upstairs tenant about the damp problem resulting from leaving the windows open - but they still leave them open - they are probably being negligent. So the tenant would probably be liable for any damage that results.

• Similarly, if the missing glass is causing dampness damage to your flat, and you have told the tenant and the council - but they haven't done anything - either the tenant and/or the council is being negligent. So one of them would probably be liable for any damage that results.

- My lease says the landlords demise is all external structure, excluding window panes and internal wall surfaces.
i.e. I believe the window frames are part of the landlords (freeholders) responsibility. 

I have no idea why the window sills are letting water in and seeping into the walls in my flat below.

- The tenants upstairs have told me their windows are scheduled to be replaced - in many many years time.

However, I have no evidence these sash windows have every been maintained and replacement would not be necessary if they had been maintained.

Added to this, their continued lack of maintenance is causing damp to the external walls in my flat.

I also think they are still repairable, and I would prefer to contribute costs towards getting them sanded down and painted.

- The neighbours have started shutting their windows.....but I still have a photo (attached) of the window wide open in torrential rain.

- The missing pane is not causing issues in my flat, but just an example of how the tenants are not reporting maintenance, that may lead to structural problems later on.  

eddddy

If the council are responsible for the windows, they'd be breaching a covenant in the lease if they don't repair them.

You could complain to the council on that basis - that they're causing damp in your flat, and that they're making the building look tatty.

But if you're correct about responsibility for costs - you'll end up contributing. (And they might decide that the best solution is to replace them, at a high cost.)


Unless, as I say, you want to challenge the cost on the basis that it's inflated due to lack of maintenance in the past.

dell12

I've lived in a very similar flat and had a very similar issue. Because of the overhang, it's actually pretty unlikely much rain is getting in through the open sash, unless there's a very strong prevailing wind.

It's far more likely that there's rot or a gap in the wooden window sill, which is letting in water, and it's coming through your ceiling. It's not a big job to fix, you just need some wood filler to plug any rot, some sealant for between the wood and the stone, and finally some paint to protect it all.

It sounds like it's the freeholder's responsibility, but you might just be better off spending £40 in B&Q and sorting it yourself if the tenants above are amenable.

EDIT to add - it looks like there's water pouring down the brickwork from your photos, probably from defective guttering. While it's not causing your damp, it's not great for the building.

Feebs77

dell12 said:

I've lived in a very similar flat and had a very similar issue. Because of the overhang, it's actually pretty unlikely much rain is getting in through the open sash, unless there's a very strong prevailing wind.

It's far more likely that there's rot or a gap in the wooden window sill, which is letting in water, and it's coming through your ceiling. It's not a big job to fix, you just need some wood filler to plug any rot, some sealant for between the wood and the stone, and finally some paint to protect it all.

It sounds like it's the freeholder's responsibility, but you might just be better off spending £40 in B&Q and sorting it yourself if the tenants above are amenable.

EDIT to add - it looks like there's water pouring down the brickwork from your photos, probably from defective guttering. While it's not causing your damp, it's not great for the building.

The tenants above are amenable to any work being done, as they don't need to pay.

As a leaseholder I need to pay 40%.

I'd prefer to have some evidence that some freeholder maintenance is going on, if I come to sell my flat. Be it repainting and repairing the sills, replacing all the guttering and backboard, which is really old. 

Re - the guttering. There was a blockage which has been sorted now by the nextdoor neighbor who cleared it. 
However, the guttering backboard hasn't been painted in a long time and is rotting, so I'm getting leaks between the guttering joints as the fix is not as secure. 

I bought the flat recently, and knew there was alot of maintenance to do, I'm just trying to figure out the best way to get it maintained, factoring in that upstairs flat are tenants and the property is council owned.

eddddy

Feebs77 said:

 I'm just trying to figure out the best way to get it maintained, factoring in that upstairs flat are tenants and the property is council owned.

As I say, you complain to your freeholder (the council) because your freeholder is breaching the covenants in the lease.


You'll have to pay 40% of the maintenance costs, but it sounds like you were expecting that when you bought.

AlexMac

Feebs77 said:

dell12 said:

...it's actually pretty unlikely much rain is getting in through the open sash... It's far more likely that there's rot or a gap in the wooden window sill, which is letting in water, and it's coming through your ceiling. It's not a big job to fix...  It sounds like it's the freeholder's responsibility, but you might just be better off spending £40 in B&Q and sorting it yourself ...EDIT to add - it looks like there's water pouring down the brickwork from your photos, probably from defective guttering. While it's not causing your damp, it's not great for the building.

The tenants above are amenable to any work being done, as they don't need to pay. As a leaseholder I need to pay 40%.

I'd prefer to have some evidence that some freeholder maintenance is going on, if I come to sell my flat. Be it repainting and repairing the sills, replacing all the guttering and backboard, which is really old. 

Re - the guttering. There was a blockage which has been sorted now by the nextdoor neighbor who cleared it. 
However, the guttering backboard hasn't been painted in a long time and is rotting, so I'm getting leaks between the guttering joints as the fix is not as secure. 

I bought the flat recently, and knew there was a lot of maintenance to do, I'm just trying to figure out the best way to get it maintained, factoring in that upstairs flat are tenants and the property is council owned.

Sympathies, Feebs77; I own a leasehold flats in a (more modern) Council freehold block and I have a much easier ride than you.  The local Council as freeholder is terrific. There's even a dedicated team in the Council tasked with communicating with leaseholders, issuing invoices and collecting Service Charges, commissioning and checking on repairs.  There's even a "Leaseholder Forum" although I've never engaged with it!

 You really need to put pressure on the Council as Freeholder, if as seems to be the case they are screwing up, neglecting maintenance, potentially causing longer term damage and already causing damp in your flat? 

This assumes that; 

-  your flat IS part of a Council-owned freehold converted house and that

-  as you say, your "...lease says the landlords demise is all external structure, excluding window panes and internal wall surfaces. i.e. I believe the window frames are part of the landlords (freeholders) responsibility..." . 

the problem is that they - the Council - are not fulfilling their obligations to maintain the gaff.  I assume this obligation is spelled out in your lease as "landlords obligations"?  Every leasehold flat I've ever owned has been clear on this; sometimes even specifying how often the external painting should be done.  It's probably more of a problem for them that you live in a Converted period property; it's easier to maintain a whole block of newer flats than a number of older, dispersed properties. Bu (you refer to them as "landlord" but in terms of your lease, this means "freeholder" or whoever 

So get on the case; find out whoever is responsible; probably within the Council's housing department. Contact them yourself as leaseholder, rather than leaving it to the upstairs Council (?) Tenant.  If all else fails, lean on your local ward Councillors; (find them from the Town Hall website or https://www.writetothem.com/ ).  And if that fails or is slow, claim the damp is affecting your health and get on to the Council's own Environmental Health Department.  OK they may think you're a prima donna, but worth a go.   I have passed my little flat over to a Social Landlord, a Housing Association, who in turn let it to Council Tenants.  The HA were taken over by another Association and standards slipped so that a couple of  minor maintenance items were neglected.  The tenent went to the EHO and both I (as owner) and the HA got a letter threatening legal action!  I put a rocket up 'em as they had a full repairing liability!

Or, as dell12 has, I think, correctly diagnosed that the leak is from rotten window-sills and seals, you could DIY?  But then what happens next time the gutters, or downpipes fail? 

But be prepared for a bill for 40% of the cost!  Good luck