Who can define my garden boundary?

Tiglet2

As a starting point, you should download the latest official office copy Title Plans from HM Land Registry for both your own and your neighbour's plots.  While they are not totally accurate, it should be pretty obvious as to whether the boundary is straight, tapered or irregular.

The title plans do not show extensions etc on properties, only the outline in red of the land on which the property sits.  When you look at both plans, are there any overlapping lines, or does the red line show the separation between yours and your neighbour's land as one line?

A hand drawn 'map' from 1977 does not sound like the official Title Plan which Land Registry would hold.  As boundaries do change over the years, it is the official Title Plans which can be relied upon, not an old Conveyance/Deed from 45 years ago.

ijm2010

Bendy_House said:

Beyond this - for the remaining 200' of your garden - that same side borders a different neighbour? 

So, to visualise, if you were to adjust your fence to accommodate your neighb's claims, the wooden and wire fence on that side would instead taper slightly inwards on your side in a still-straight and steady line (but no longer parallel), do this for the first 200' of your boundary with this neighbour until it reached the bottom of their garden, and... then what? What do the neighb's deeds show then? Is it:

a) that 400' boundary continues in a straight, tapering line - ie it will be 24' narrower at the very bottom? Or,

b) the taper 'only' lasts for 200', whereupon it then dog-legs back to where it currently is, and then carries on in a straight-and-parallel line for the remaining 200'?

Yes the garden is an odd shape, the bottom half boarders a park and starts to taper in my garden from the point of the bottom of my neighbours garden towards the end (this part of the taper is not in dispute). if I put the boarder where my neighbours deeds say, my garden will have a sort of Christmas tree shape where it tapers in, juts out 12ft towards the park and then tapers in again. The whole thing is complicated further by the fact that on my neighbours other side their boundary isn't in the place their deeds say it is (mine show their boundary where it sits but there's have it in a different place closer to our boundary) but this is nothing to do with me.

My main question is around the deeds being from different times and which one is correct, I think the info I'm piecing together seems to indicate that as my deeds are a more accurate reflection of how all other boundaries sit then they can be classed as the more accurate ones? What I didn't want to be told was that their hand drawn plans were done by professionals and we're accurate and mine were updated by 'some kid on a CAD program' who prob made a mistake, but it sounds like that's not the case?
Thank you for all your answers. 

Tiglet2

ijm2010 said:

Bendy_House said:

Beyond this - for the remaining 200' of your garden - that same side borders a different neighbour? 

So, to visualise, if you were to adjust your fence to accommodate your neighb's claims, the wooden and wire fence on that side would instead taper slightly inwards on your side in a still-straight and steady line (but no longer parallel), do this for the first 200' of your boundary with this neighbour until it reached the bottom of their garden, and... then what? What do the neighb's deeds show then? Is it:

a) that 400' boundary continues in a straight, tapering line - ie it will be 24' narrower at the very bottom? Or,

b) the taper 'only' lasts for 200', whereupon it then dog-legs back to where it currently is, and then carries on in a straight-and-parallel line for the remaining 200'?

Yes the garden is an odd shape, the bottom half boarders a park and starts to taper in my garden from the point of the bottom of my neighbours garden towards the end (this part of the taper is not in dispute). if I put the boarder where my neighbours deeds say, my garden will have a sort of Christmas tree shape where it tapers in, juts out 12ft towards the park and then tapers in again. The whole thing is complicated further by the fact that on my neighbours other side their boundary isn't in the place their deeds say it is (mine show their boundary where it sits but there's have it in a different place closer to our boundary) but this is nothing to do with me.

My main question is around the deeds being from different times and which one is correct, I think the info I'm piecing together seems to indicate that as my deeds are a more accurate reflection of how all other boundaries sit then they can be classed as the more accurate ones? What I didn't want to be told was that their hand drawn plans were done by professionals and we're accurate and mine were updated by 'some kid on a CAD program' who prob made a mistake, but it sounds like that's not the case?
Thank you for all your answers. 

When you are buying a property, the solicitor will send you a copy of the official Title Plan (from HM Land Registry) and ask you to confirm that the Plan reflects what you can see 'on the ground', i.e. when you view the property yourself.  These Title Plans are what solicitors will refer to and they will download the latest version.  They won't be looking at old deeds.  Does the latest version of the Title Plan held by Land Registry reflect the same as the hand drawn plans provided by your neighbour?  

ijm2010

Tiglet2 said:

When you are buying a property, the solicitor will send you a copy of the official Title Plan (from HM Land Registry) and ask you to confirm that the Plan reflects what you can see 'on the ground', i.e. when you view the property yourself.  These Title Plans are what solicitors will refer to and they will download the latest version.  They won't be looking at old deeds.  Does the latest version of the Title Plan held by Land Registry reflect the same as the hand drawn plans provided by your neighbour?  

The plans I have are from the solicitor (as a side note I wasn't asked if they accurately reflect the layout). I got mine when I purchased the property and when the dispute with the boundaries kicked off I questioned my solicitor who pulled me a copy of my neighbours deeds/plans and sent them to me. However a link was posted above to the land registry website and when I searched my property on their the plans I have are exactly the same, my neighbours are different, so I suppose the question is, why are the plans attached to my neighbours deeds from 1977 and not updated to the current ones when the last sale was completed?

Bendy_House

ijm2010 said:

Yes the garden is an odd shape, the bottom half boarders a park and starts to taper in my garden from the point of the bottom of my neighbours garden towards the end (this part of the taper is not in dispute). if I put the boarder where my neighbours deeds say, my garden will have a sort of Christmas tree shape where it tapers in, juts out 12ft towards the park and then tapers in again. The whole thing is complicated further by the fact that on my neighbours other side their boundary isn't in the place their deeds say it is (mine show their boundary where it sits but there's have it in a different place closer to our boundary) but this is nothing to do with me.

My main question is around the deeds being from different times and which one is correct, I think the info I'm piecing together seems to indicate that as my deeds are a more accurate reflection of how all other boundaries sit then they can be classed as the more accurate ones? What I didn't want to be told was that their hand drawn plans were done by professionals and we're accurate and mine were updated by 'some kid on a CAD program' who prob made a mistake, but it sounds like that's not the case?
Thank you for all your answers. 

Do you have LP on your house insurance?

Ok, the onus is on them to prove that the boundaries are as shown in their docs. They should already be on the back-foot as they have only just purchased their property, and part of the conveyancing process asks them to CONFIRM that the boundaries are accurate as shown in the provided deeds. I can only guess they didn't do this, at least not properly.

Anyhoo, it doesn't matter what they might claim re which copy is more accurate, or when they were drawn up, but I would suggest that they'll have a very difficult job to move this issue forward, and I wouldn't do anything to help them unless your legal guidance tells you to.

At the moment, you bought your property agreeing that your boundaries were as shown in your deeds. And you are still content that remain correct and accurate. They would (should...) have carried out the exact same process, but presumably didn't do it properly, and are now complaining. (That really sticks in my craw - they were presumably 'happy' with what they were buying, regardless or not whether they carried out 'due diligence', but now tooth-pic their docs, and are willing to p-off neighbours in their new-found quest... Pfffft.)

Also, as far as you can tell, the boundaries have been there for donkey's. Keep asking other neighbours - ol' timers - whether they have any idea, and note down what they say.

I'd suggest that your new neighbour has a mountain to climb. Meanwhile - MATTER OF FACT. Act as if you think it a bit nuts that it could be anything other than shown in your deeds - add the odd sigh of impatience. Don't be 'helpful', suggesting you'll assist them to get to the bottom of this, or agreeing to mediation or prolonged discussion. Just, "Look - sigh - tbh, I know our boundaries are accurate to our deeds, and have been like this for as long as anyone knows. We checked them as part of the buying process, and now't has changed since. Everyone I've spoken to around here agrees. You bought your house having presumably checked and agreed that YOUR deeds were accurate, yes? You DID this, didn't you? You accepted the boundaries as being accurate? If you tried to claim against your conveyancing solicitor about this, for instance, they'd just point to their instruction to you for you to confirm it. But, hey, if you wish to investigate this now, that's your call, but I'm really not interested in discussing this, any more than I am who owns this (point to your garage), or that (gazebo...)."

Remaining polite, try and still make it clear you find it an intrusion, an annoyance, irritating that they would do this - when they should have done it during the buying process. THAT was the time to raise any concerns with their solicitor, and they would have got their answer without having to risk annoying their new neighbours, or creating a dispute. Perhaps they need a subtle hint as to what they risk.

So, don't do or say anything that will imply you will help them, or are open to sorting this out. To you, this is a nonsense. If, later on, you have to agree to a boundary surveyor, that's different. But don't encourage them or make it easy.

Do you have LP...?

Bendy_House

ijm2010 said:

Tiglet2 said:

When you are buying a property, the solicitor will send you a copy of the official Title Plan (from HM Land Registry) and ask you to confirm that the Plan reflects what you can see 'on the ground', i.e. when you view the property yourself.  These Title Plans are what solicitors will refer to and they will download the latest version.  They won't be looking at old deeds.  Does the latest version of the Title Plan held by Land Registry reflect the same as the hand drawn plans provided by your neighbour?  

The plans I have are from the solicitor (as a side note I wasn't asked if they accurately reflect the layout). I got mine when I purchased the property and when the dispute with the boundaries kicked off I questioned my solicitor who pulled me a copy of my neighbours deeds/plans and sent them to me. However a link was posted above to the land registry website and when I searched my property on their the plans I have are exactly the same, my neighbours are different, so I suppose the question is, why are the plans attached to my neighbours deeds from 1977 and not updated to the current ones when the last sale was completed?

You weren't asked to check the plans? Are you sure? It's pretty standard. It would likely have been in the covering letter from your solicitor - the "Enclosed are a copy of the deeds and the SIP. Please....blah blah blah"

Have a look through your correspondence to confirm. In ANY case, HAD you checked them (as you should...) you'd have found now't amiss. So, from this moment on, you may wish to 'assume' that you DID check them...

As for your 'question' about why you and your neighb's deeds are different, I'd say that's not for you to worry about. Quite possibly they have just not been updated yet? Or, possibly the boundary outline won't be - the discrepancy will remain for now.

But that's THEIR discrepancy, and not yours.

Remember... 'sigh'... "Really?! You didn't notice this discrepancy when you bought the place, despite being asked to check and confirm them, and now you are bringing this issue to your new neighbours? Wow..." Practice 'shakes head sadly'.
Just make it clear that this is an irritation, and you won't be falling over yourself to help. "But, hey, you are entitled to check this out...".

ijm2010

Bendy_House said:

ijm2010 said:

Yes the garden is an odd shape, the bottom half boarders a park and starts to taper in my garden from the point of the bottom of my neighbours garden towards the end (this part of the taper is not in dispute). if I put the boarder where my neighbours deeds say, my garden will have a sort of Christmas tree shape where it tapers in, juts out 12ft towards the park and then tapers in again. The whole thing is complicated further by the fact that on my neighbours other side their boundary isn't in the place their deeds say it is (mine show their boundary where it sits but there's have it in a different place closer to our boundary) but this is nothing to do with me.

My main question is around the deeds being from different times and which one is correct, I think the info I'm piecing together seems to indicate that as my deeds are a more accurate reflection of how all other boundaries sit then they can be classed as the more accurate ones? What I didn't want to be told was that their hand drawn plans were done by professionals and we're accurate and mine were updated by 'some kid on a CAD program' who prob made a mistake, but it sounds like that's not the case?
Thank you for all your answers. 

Do you have LP on your house insurance?

Ok, the onus is on them to prove that the boundaries are as shown in their docs. They should already be on the back-foot as they have only just purchased their property, and part of the conveyancing process asks them to CONFIRM that the boundaries are accurate as shown in the provided deeds. I can only guess they didn't do this, at least not properly.

Anyhoo, it doesn't matter what they might claim re which copy is more accurate, or when they were drawn up, but I would suggest that they'll have a very difficult job to move this issue forward, and I wouldn't do anything to help them unless your legal guidance tells you to.

At the moment, you bought your property agreeing that your boundaries were as shown in your deeds. And you are still content that remain correct and accurate. They would (should...) have carried out the exact same process, but presumably didn't do it properly, and are now complaining. (That really sticks in my craw - they were presumably 'happy' with what they were buying, regardless or not whether they carried out 'due diligence', but now tooth-pic their docs, and are willing to p-off neighbours in their new-found quest... Pfffft.)

Also, as far as you can tell, the boundaries have been there for donkey's. Keep asking other neighbours - ol' timers - whether they have any idea, and note down what they say.

I'd suggest that your new neighbour has a mountain to climb. Meanwhile - MATTER OF FACT. Act as if you think it a bit nuts that it could be anything other than shown in your deeds - add the odd sigh of impatience. Don't be 'helpful', suggesting you'll assist them to get to the bottom of this, or agreeing to mediation or prolonged discussion. Just, "Look - sigh - tbh, I know our boundaries are accurate to our deeds, and have been like this for as long as anyone knows. We checked them as part of the buying process, and now't has changed since. Everyone I've spoken to around here agrees. You bought your house having presumably checked and agreed that YOUR deeds were accurate, yes? You DID this, didn't you? You accepted the boundaries as being accurate? If you tried to claim against your conveyancing solicitor about this, for instance, they'd just point to their instruction to you for you to confirm it. But, hey, if you wish to investigate this now, that's your call, but I'm really not interested in discussing this, any more than I am who owns this (point to your garage), or that (gazebo...)."

Remaining polite, try and still make it clear you find it an intrusion, an annoyance, irritating that they would do this - when they should have done it during the buying process. THAT was the time to raise any concerns with their solicitor, and they would have got their answer without having to risk annoying their new neighbours, or creating a dispute. Perhaps they need a subtle hint as to what they risk.

So, don't do or say anything that will imply you will help them, or are open to sorting this out. To you, this is a nonsense. If, later on, you have to agree to a boundary surveyor, that's different. But don't encourage them or make it easy.

Do you have LP...?

Thank you for all the information, yes I have legal protection with my home insurance.

Bendy_House

ijm2010 said:

Bendy_House said:

ijm2010 said:

Yes the garden is an odd shape, the bottom half boarders a park and starts to taper in my garden from the point of the bottom of my neighbours garden towards the end (this part of the taper is not in dispute). if I put the boarder where my neighbours deeds say, my garden will have a sort of Christmas tree shape where it tapers in, juts out 12ft towards the park and then tapers in again. The whole thing is complicated further by the fact that on my neighbours other side their boundary isn't in the place their deeds say it is (mine show their boundary where it sits but there's have it in a different place closer to our boundary) but this is nothing to do with me.

My main question is around the deeds being from different times and which one is correct, I think the info I'm piecing together seems to indicate that as my deeds are a more accurate reflection of how all other boundaries sit then they can be classed as the more accurate ones? What I didn't want to be told was that their hand drawn plans were done by professionals and we're accurate and mine were updated by 'some kid on a CAD program' who prob made a mistake, but it sounds like that's not the case?
Thank you for all your answers. 

Do you have LP on your house insurance?

Ok, the onus is on them to prove that the boundaries are as shown in their docs. They should already be on the back-foot as they have only just purchased their property, and part of the conveyancing process asks them to CONFIRM that the boundaries are accurate as shown in the provided deeds. I can only guess they didn't do this, at least not properly.

Anyhoo, it doesn't matter what they might claim re which copy is more accurate, or when they were drawn up, but I would suggest that they'll have a very difficult job to move this issue forward, and I wouldn't do anything to help them unless your legal guidance tells you to.

At the moment, you bought your property agreeing that your boundaries were as shown in your deeds. And you are still content that remain correct and accurate. They would (should...) have carried out the exact same process, but presumably didn't do it properly, and are now complaining. (That really sticks in my craw - they were presumably 'happy' with what they were buying, regardless or not whether they carried out 'due diligence', but now tooth-pic their docs, and are willing to p-off neighbours in their new-found quest... Pfffft.)

Also, as far as you can tell, the boundaries have been there for donkey's. Keep asking other neighbours - ol' timers - whether they have any idea, and note down what they say.

I'd suggest that your new neighbour has a mountain to climb. Meanwhile - MATTER OF FACT. Act as if you think it a bit nuts that it could be anything other than shown in your deeds - add the odd sigh of impatience. Don't be 'helpful', suggesting you'll assist them to get to the bottom of this, or agreeing to mediation or prolonged discussion. Just, "Look - sigh - tbh, I know our boundaries are accurate to our deeds, and have been like this for as long as anyone knows. We checked them as part of the buying process, and now't has changed since. Everyone I've spoken to around here agrees. You bought your house having presumably checked and agreed that YOUR deeds were accurate, yes? You DID this, didn't you? You accepted the boundaries as being accurate? If you tried to claim against your conveyancing solicitor about this, for instance, they'd just point to their instruction to you for you to confirm it. But, hey, if you wish to investigate this now, that's your call, but I'm really not interested in discussing this, any more than I am who owns this (point to your garage), or that (gazebo...)."

Remaining polite, try and still make it clear you find it an intrusion, an annoyance, irritating that they would do this - when they should have done it during the buying process. THAT was the time to raise any concerns with their solicitor, and they would have got their answer without having to risk annoying their new neighbours, or creating a dispute. Perhaps they need a subtle hint as to what they risk.

So, don't do or say anything that will imply you will help them, or are open to sorting this out. To you, this is a nonsense. If, later on, you have to agree to a boundary surveyor, that's different. But don't encourage them or make it easy.

Do you have LP...?

Thank you for all the information, yes I have legal protection with my home insurance.

LP! Yay!!

They are there for two reasons: the first is just for advice, and you should be able to call them up pretty much any time for this. The second is to act for you should it be required. And, they are generally more 'up' for defending actions than taking them. So you should be fine.

I'd probably wait until the neighb makes it clear they are pursuing this, but no harm in calling your LP for a chat beforehand if you wish. 

Again, with your neighb, don't show 'uncertainty' over this issue, or a willingness to even discuss it in any depth, the "Why this, why that?" malarkey. Don't ignore them either, of course - always be very polite and receptive - but bring anything they say back to the mantras;

My very recent deeds agree with the boundaries.

I confirmed this when I bought the place.

No idea why your older, hand-drawn maps are different but, tbh, that isn't my problem.

No, I'm not willing to mediate/share a surveyor as, frankly, I'm as clear on these deeds boundaries as I am about my marriage cert (now't wrong with a bit of flippancy to make a point...)

Why didn't you question your solicitor on this before you bought the place - that's when you should have noticed. (You can drop whatever level of hint you consider appropriate to imply their risk of causing a dispute.)

ijm2010

Bendy_House said:

ijm2010 said:

Bendy_House said:

ijm2010 said:

Yes the garden is an odd shape, the bottom half boarders a park and starts to taper in my garden from the point of the bottom of my neighbours garden towards the end (this part of the taper is not in dispute). if I put the boarder where my neighbours deeds say, my garden will have a sort of Christmas tree shape where it tapers in, juts out 12ft towards the park and then tapers in again. The whole thing is complicated further by the fact that on my neighbours other side their boundary isn't in the place their deeds say it is (mine show their boundary where it sits but there's have it in a different place closer to our boundary) but this is nothing to do with me.

My main question is around the deeds being from different times and which one is correct, I think the info I'm piecing together seems to indicate that as my deeds are a more accurate reflection of how all other boundaries sit then they can be classed as the more accurate ones? What I didn't want to be told was that their hand drawn plans were done by professionals and we're accurate and mine were updated by 'some kid on a CAD program' who prob made a mistake, but it sounds like that's not the case?
Thank you for all your answers. 

Do you have LP on your house insurance?

Ok, the onus is on them to prove that the boundaries are as shown in their docs. They should already be on the back-foot as they have only just purchased their property, and part of the conveyancing process asks them to CONFIRM that the boundaries are accurate as shown in the provided deeds. I can only guess they didn't do this, at least not properly.

Anyhoo, it doesn't matter what they might claim re which copy is more accurate, or when they were drawn up, but I would suggest that they'll have a very difficult job to move this issue forward, and I wouldn't do anything to help them unless your legal guidance tells you to.

At the moment, you bought your property agreeing that your boundaries were as shown in your deeds. And you are still content that remain correct and accurate. They would (should...) have carried out the exact same process, but presumably didn't do it properly, and are now complaining. (That really sticks in my craw - they were presumably 'happy' with what they were buying, regardless or not whether they carried out 'due diligence', but now tooth-pic their docs, and are willing to p-off neighbours in their new-found quest... Pfffft.)

Also, as far as you can tell, the boundaries have been there for donkey's. Keep asking other neighbours - ol' timers - whether they have any idea, and note down what they say.

I'd suggest that your new neighbour has a mountain to climb. Meanwhile - MATTER OF FACT. Act as if you think it a bit nuts that it could be anything other than shown in your deeds - add the odd sigh of impatience. Don't be 'helpful', suggesting you'll assist them to get to the bottom of this, or agreeing to mediation or prolonged discussion. Just, "Look - sigh - tbh, I know our boundaries are accurate to our deeds, and have been like this for as long as anyone knows. We checked them as part of the buying process, and now't has changed since. Everyone I've spoken to around here agrees. You bought your house having presumably checked and agreed that YOUR deeds were accurate, yes? You DID this, didn't you? You accepted the boundaries as being accurate? If you tried to claim against your conveyancing solicitor about this, for instance, they'd just point to their instruction to you for you to confirm it. But, hey, if you wish to investigate this now, that's your call, but I'm really not interested in discussing this, any more than I am who owns this (point to your garage), or that (gazebo...)."

Remaining polite, try and still make it clear you find it an intrusion, an annoyance, irritating that they would do this - when they should have done it during the buying process. THAT was the time to raise any concerns with their solicitor, and they would have got their answer without having to risk annoying their new neighbours, or creating a dispute. Perhaps they need a subtle hint as to what they risk.

So, don't do or say anything that will imply you will help them, or are open to sorting this out. To you, this is a nonsense. If, later on, you have to agree to a boundary surveyor, that's different. But don't encourage them or make it easy.

Do you have LP...?

Thank you for all the information, yes I have legal protection with my home insurance.

LP! Yay!!

They are there for two reasons: the first is just for advice, and you should be able to call them up pretty much any time for this. The second is to act for you should it be required. And, they are generally more 'up' for defending actions than taking them. So you should be fine.

I'd probably wait until the neighb makes it clear they are pursuing this, but no harm in calling for a chat beforehand if you wish. 

Again, I'll emphasise, don't show 'uncertainty' over this issue with your neighbour, or a willingness to even discuss it in any depth "Why this, why that?" Don't ignore them either, of course - always be very polite and receptive - but bring anything they say back to the mantras;

My very recent deeds agree with the boundaries.

I confirmed this when I bought the place.

No idea why your older, hand-drawn maps are different but, tbh, that isn't my problem.

No, I'm not willing to mediate/share a surveyor as, frankly, I'm as clear on these deeds boundaries as I am about my marriage cert (now't wrong with a bit of flippancy to make a point...)

Why didn't you question your solicitor on this before you bought the place - that's when you should have noticed. (You can drop whatever level of hint you consider appropriate to imply their risk of causing a dispute.)

Thank you