Builder - red flags or normal?

leypt1

Hi,

After a very lengthy and painful process of getting three builders quotes, we have finally set a date and paid a £500 deposit (about 2.5%). This builder wasn't our top choice but was the most affordable (we are still paying a lot/over the odds, based on the other thread I created about this). We found him on checkatrade where he has a rating of 9.94 based on 42 reviews.

He is due to start works in 3 weeks but some issues have already arisen:

- We sent him a big spreadsheet detailing who would supply each and every component. He's gone through this and claims that we've added underfloor heating additional to our spec and his quote, so he'll need to requote. I went and checked his (written, emailed) quote and it says right there - "UFH". Easily resolved but it means a potential disagreement straight away
- He wants 70% of the balance (over £13k) to be paid on the first day of works. We are supplying almost all materials
- I've made it really clear that I expect building control sign-off on these works and he's agreed to be in charge of this (it's making changes to an external wall). When I asked what arrangements he's making he said we'd discuss it on the first day of works - surely this is too late?
- He's ignored my question about a guarantee

I want to push back on the payment schedule - is this reasonable? Or, would you progress with this at all? It doesn't feel like a great start, we're really stretching ourselves financially for this, and we've been stung by terrible builders before so we're extra jumpy

TELLIT01

From my limited experience of Building Control, all that is required is a phonecall and arrange a date for their visit.  There is no point in contacting them weeks in advance unless precise dates for work to be done is known.

Paying 70% up front when you are supplying most materials seems very high.  I would expect to possibly pay for his materials purchase when required, and stage payments for the labour.

comeandgo

By supplying the materials you are leaving yourselves very open for disaster if ant problems occur.  Are you really supplying all the UFH materials and expecting someone else to fit them?  What happens if there is a fault?  He can blame the materials, say they are faulty, the place where you bought them from will blame the fitting and you have to try and sort it out.  This applies to all the materials you supply, I know it does make the job cheaper but with potential risks involved .  

I would not be paying anything prior to a completed weeks work.  

Doozergirl

TELLIT01 said:

From my limited experience of Building Control, all that is required is a phonecall and arrange a date for their visit.  There is no point in contacting them weeks in advance unless precise dates for work to be done is known.

Paying 70% up front when you are supplying most materials seems very high.  I would expect to possibly pay for his materials purchase when required, and stage payments for the labour.

Building Control should be contacted 14 days before work starts... 

70% up front is ridiculous if there's no materials involved and zero responsibility if OP is supplying materials. 

You can't just choose on price, *especially* if you're short of cash.  Buy cheap, pay dear.  He's already putting the price up!

All red flags for me. The only normal thing is that you cannot expect a guarantee if the builder is not on a 'supply and fit' contract. You are always responsible for the materials and they're not going to provide free labour to fix a faulty item that they didn't buy.   You may save some money initially, but your insurance policy is the money you save initially.  

What kind of UFH is this?  Is this person a qualified electrician/gas engineer? 

hkuk1973

Hello Leypt1,

I am currently in the 3rd week of a 8 week project to build a rear extension.  Here are some of my own experience, hope you  find it useful.  

1. Building control - Have you submitted a building control application?  In the work for my extension, I am the person who books a visit from Building control.  This way, I am in the loop and know pretty much how things are progressing.  It is easier for the builder as well as he has other jobs on the go and can't always remember. 

2. Payment schedule
The builder gave me a 7 pages detailed quote, how much each stage costs for material and labour.  He also gave me a work schedule, showing expected progress for each week.  I got him to agreed that I will only pay him if the building inspector is satisified with his work.  So far I have paid him for excavation for foundation, foundation construction, Oversite and drains. The next one is the roof which according to the working schedule, the builder will start next week. 

I think if you feel uneasy about the situation, then may be you should have a good talk with the builder.  It is always better to clarify the situation before work starts when it is easier to walk away. 

Good luck. 

leypt1

Thanks everyone for your replies, really appreciated. Tried to do things a bit more by the book this time but clearly still failed!

Some quick replies:

-We had originally suggested he pay for UFH on our spreadsheet but he wants us to supply it. He also pushed back on grout and wastes for the sinks and bath. He's not challenged various other bits e.g. plaster, tile adhesive, fittings to connect baths and sinks to plumbing.
-the UFH is electric. Will ask re. qualifications but he has said there'll be multiple people on site
-I think I will submit a building notice (probably not a full application based on the guidance on my council's website), and I took a quick look at the application form this morning. Helpful to know I need to leave 14 days.
-Ha, we got nothing like a 7 page quote. We've asked twice how long various stages will take and he's not answered properly but has suggested that we move out for a month! Good idea. re. only paying if the inspector is satisfied.
-We did suggest that we paid after each stage (i.e. tiling our hearth, bathroom, kitchen) but that's when he suggested the 13k upfront.

It's not a huge build - there is some structural work but it's just swapping our external door and window, and the rest is refurbishment - so it's hard to know what we should've asked for up front and what's proportionate. I think if we seek a new quote we would go in with our detailed spreadsheet much earlier, and ask for a detailed breakdown of the work stages, payment plan etc, but it's disappointing that even someone apparently well-rated didn't think to offer. Where am I supposed to find a decent builder??

For now I will push back and see what he says. If he's receptive to my suggestions then maybe we would still be happy to proceed.

leypt1

Also just to add that every builder we've spoken to has been happy with our suggestion to supply bathroom fittings - we've suggested this because we know what "look" we want and we assumed it was standard?

As a compromise, if we suggested things but the builder bought them (or something of their choice but very similar), would this mean we're supplying them or the builder is?

FreeBear

leypt1 said: the UFH is electric.

With the cost of electricity at the moment (as well as the predicted rises), you won't be using the UFH much - It is going to cost an absolute fortune to run !

You would have been much better off installing a wet UFH system hooked up to your existing central heating system. A wet system is much cheaper to run, and also puts you in an ideal position should you ever move to air/ground source heat pump. Yes, a wet system will cost a bit more than electric, but you have an ideal opportunity to future proof your heating.

Gavin83

How much floor space we talking for the electric UFH? It’ll cost a lot more than gas central heating or wet UFH. If we’re talking a reasonable space you could easily be looking at a £+ per hour it’s on and given UFH needs to be on most, if not all the time to get the benefit you could see your energy bills rise sharply. 

leypt1

FreeBear said:

leypt1 said: the UFH is electric.

With the cost of electricity at the moment (as well as the predicted rises), you won't be using the UFH much - It is going to cost an absolute fortune to run !

You would have been much better off installing a wet UFH system hooked up to your existing central heating system. A wet system is much cheaper to run, and also puts you in an ideal position should you ever move to air/ground source heat pump. Yes, a wet system will cost a bit more than electric, but you have an ideal opportunity to future proof your heating.

I haven't actually done anything yet!! Thanks for the suggestion though

leypt1

Gavin83 said:

How much floor space we talking for the electric UFH? It’ll cost a lot more than gas central heating or wet UFH. If we’re talking a reasonable space you could easily be looking at a £+ per hour it’s on and given UFH needs to be on most, if not all the time to get the benefit you could see your energy bills rise sharply. 

The kitchen is 6.48m2 including the area under the units, excluding this would make it 3.24m2

Bathroom is 4m2

We'll look into wet, thanks!