Faulty washer dryer & property damage

shiraz99

mChavez said:

I just don't get the faulty outlet angle - house electrics have been working fine for years; the machine started throwing up errors first; the machine & socket were inspected by the engineer and there was nothing wrong with the socket. Then the engineer reconnected the machine, gave it an all clear and then the machine blew up a couple days later.
Hypothetically, yes, it is possible that the outlet became bad in the 4 days between the inspection and the machine blowing up. Not impossible, but surely, implausible.

What opinion can a sparky issue now, that the socket has burned? "It's buggered"? That won't be of help to anyone.

The one attempt at fixing is interesting - is that written in the Act?

Any decent electrician would be able to diagnose a faulty electric supply even when the socket is "buggered" as you put it. We're not saying that the fault only started in the 4 days between the inspection and it eventually going, it could well be faulty way before this which gave all the issues you were having before you called them out, basically it was a ticking time bomb and the load from the WM just set it off.

Yes, the bit about a single attempt at repair is in the CRA but that doesn't change the fact that AO have the right to get you to prove that the fault existed with the machine and not your electrics.

Nearlyold

If the socket was sparking, then it's almost certain there is a loose wire not making proper contact in the socket, or the socket switch contacts are eroded/faulty either of which would cause arcing. The socket feeds power to the washing machine, if there was a short in the washing machine that would overload the socket enough to cause a socket correctly wired and in good condition to start smoking then the fuse in the plug would blow.

Can you clarify

Has anyone such as the first engineer or second engineer actually taken the socket off the wall to inspect the wiring and check for burning? Has the socket been replaced?

Has anyone tested the washing machine after the plug fire by plugging it in to a different socket?

born_again

mChavez said:

Hi All,

I would be very grateful for some advice on the best way to approach the following issue:
I have purchased a Hisense washer dryer from AO in March 22. It has worked fine until 2 weeks ago, when it suddenly developed multiple faults (faulty door lock error & lock clicking & sticking, controls developing a mind of their own & freezing, etc).
The washer was still under warranty (it's only been 7 months), so I immediately reported the fault to AO and Hisense. Hisense got an engineer out, who took the washer apart, checked & tested it and reported that he could not find any damage or problems at all & the machine was working to full spec. Engineer's advice was that I should keep using the machine & contact Hisense if any issues come back. No repairs were carried out.
The lock error came back the same day (!) and then disappeared, so I reported it to AO and Hisense, who booked another engineer visit, however, before the engineer could arrive, the machine suddenly went into a buzzing & clicking frenzy, followed by a lot of sparking/minor fire at the wall plug before I killed the power at the mains fuse box. Thankfully, nobody got hurt, and the property damage is miniscule.
The machine is now pretty much dead, however, at the moment AO and Hisense refuse to accept any liability for electrical damage to my property (very minor - just a burnt socket) and intend to repair the machine by replacing the motherboard, mains cable & the lock.

I would really appreciate some help with a few questions:

1) I am absolutely confident that the fire was caused by the faulty machine - I've had no electrical problems in the 9 years I've owned the house; the plug & the socket were inspected by the first engineer & he reported there were no signs of damage just a few days before the whole thing went up in flames. The machine, on the other hand, has been playing up recently.
2) Do I have to accept the warranty repair? The damn thing has caused one minor fire already, and I don't think it's safe to keep running it, even if one of their engineers claims it's OK after the repair (been there, done that already).
3) Who do I push the claims with? AO or Hisense?
4) What is considered a reasonable warranty repair time? I've got 3 small kids, so it would be extremely problematic to live without a washer dryer for weeks. 

Thank you very much.

Aside from the washer issue. Which as others have posted given the sparking at socket, certainly points to a issue there.

Get your electrics checked. As it should have killed the power before you got there.

How old is the fuse box/electrics. Are these RCD or old bakelite & fuse wire?

mChavez

RCD, about 11-12 years old (the lassie who owned the house before me had everything in the house overhauled, and was not on the world's tightest budget while doing it).
The socket is probably the least mechanically used socket in the house, as the washer is always plugged in, so the contacts were not loose or worn.

As I mentioned, I did not watch the first engineer for all the time he was doing the test; second has done nothing at all.
The machine plug is burnt, so no, the second guy didn't plug the machine into anything to test it.

It looks like there was excessive sparking between the socket and the plug when it burned.
There were no signs of any sparking in that area when the first engineer was here, 4 days before the fire.
There is nothing in both engineers' reports suggesting that the house electrics were at fault, or any evidence of damage to house electrics at first inspection - as I mentioned, it was Hisense customer service making up assumptions.

Having had a think about this and had a chat with a pal of mine, it is a possibility that the first engineer simply didn't insert the machine plug all the way in when reconnecting, which led to arching & sparking.
The machine faults would be a separate issue - if it was losing power or restarting while running  prior to the first inspection - I would have bought the faulty electrics line, but running the cycle and displaying a faulty door lock error, or freezing after the cycle has completed... finding it hard to believe.
Similarly, if there were any signs of burning or sparking on the plug or the socket (I've only seen the outside) at first inspection, I'd find it a lot easier to believe that the socket was at fault (in fact, I would have got the socket checked out asap).
If the electrics were >30 years old, again, I would have bought the faulty electrics line.

mattyprice4004

The socket not being regularly used / worn is usually more of a bad thing than good - corrosion can build up on connectors, and this will lead to the issues you’ve had. 

We have a socket in this house which did similar when used with a fridge - the intermittent fault caused some rather weird behaviour, eventually causing the run capacitor on the compressor to fail quite spectacularly. 

I have a relatively in-depth background in electronics (not specifically in appliances, but the basics are the same) and there is no way a faulty appliance would cause an otherwise healthy socket to melt or catch fire. 

First of all there’s a fuse rated at 13 amps - the socket itself and plug are rated to least 16 as ‘leeway’ and even then they wouldn’t fail that way if in otherwise good condition. 

You then have the RCDs which would catch any leakage to Earth from the faulty appliance - if the appliance was faulty there’d likely be some leakage which would trip the RCD. 

High resistance on a joint (which would cause the melting) by definition doesn’t cause any current leakage to Earth, so your RCDs wouldn’t trip. 

I know you’ll probably continue to push the other way, but as someone who’s both been there and understands these things, the socket has likely been the issue all along. 

It doesn’t matter if there were no outside signs, and various functions behaving oddly is *exactly* what happens when supply to the electronics within the machine is iffy rather than supporting the hypothesis of a faulty machine. 

Jonboy_1984

I wouldn’t say it’s a routine thing, but it is something I have seen a few times with equipment my industry relies, on that draws high current from 13 amp sockets. Loose connections in the sockets (either a loose cable on the back of the socket or  the springs that hold the plug pins tight) cause the parts to vibrate at the same frequency as the power supply (50 hertz equals 50 vibrations a second) and do cause socket damage and scorch marks. This is typically around the “live” pin.

It is more often seen with the newer moulded types of plug and cables because the heat is less likely to dissipate quickly.

We have seen it on properties with very old wiring, and a less than year old new build…

In the case of the relatively simple equipment in question it has always been remedied with a new socket and plug (and possibly cable) and away it goes.

biscan25

The MIL had this problem with a washing machine, the display would go into a weird lighting display and make clicking noises (like the dials on your speedo if you run a car with a dodgy battery and alternator), and occasionally throwing the RCD.

Housing association said it was the appliance, despite her saying it worked perfectly well from a socket in another room.

I changed the socket. The live wire was trimmed very short and I suspect was not making a good connection, when combined with the vibration of the operation of the machine. Problem went away. £2 spent.

If I was the OP I would reject the machine just in case it was that, and change the socket if they are comfortable doing that.

mChavez

Thanks folks.

Being without the machine with 3 small kids is a nightmare, so what's the fastest way to escalate this and reject the dang thing?

AO have my request to reject it on the basis that the error has not been fixed during the first attempt & have my video showing that the error did, in fact exist, despite what Hisense are trying to claim. However, they refuse to do anything until Hisense confirm it was faulty.
Hisense are dodging my calls and emails and are a real pain to deal with, but it looks like they are trying to push a warranty repair route - "will replace a few parts and see if it works, can't guarantee anything".

I am thinking of just buying a new machine and trying to reclaim the Hisense one via Section 75 (does it even apply if I paid with Credit card via Paypal to the retailer?) but there's got to be some way that I can escalate this? It's been 3 weeks since I have reported the original fault.

Tempted to buy a cheap used one off gumtree and fix it myself going forward - the way these companies treat warranty repairs is a disgrace.

Appliance_engineer

unforeseen said:

why the assumption that the outlet was faulty?

Because sockets don't burn unless there is a problem within it. As previously stated if the washing machine was faulty to the extent that excess current causes the socket to overheat the the fuse would have blown but I assume it didn't. 
In which case we are back to a poor connection in the socket. 

Is this a socket that doesn't normally get disturbed, E.G. behind the washer?

Absolutely this from an appliance engineer of over 35 years.  A burnt socket is the socket's receiving brass receivers not making good contact with the plug pins and almost certainly not the plug on the appliance. It may well have worked without problems for years but the very process of unplugging and plugging in a new plug can be enough to create a poor connection to a faulty socket.

It is always too easy to suspect the new appliance.  I've seen this many, many times when working for manufacturers.

Aylesbury_Duck

mChavez said:

Comsumerhelpgenius said:

You can choose replacement, not a repair, under Consumer Rights Act 2015. 

Thank you - does this apply to items > 6 months old (that dang thing is 7 months old)?

You can ask for a replacement, but no, the retailer has the choice.  This poster frequently misunderstands the CRA and posts erroneous information, so take their advice with caution.