IMPORTANT: Please make sure your posts do not contain any personally identifiable information (both your own and that of others). When uploading images, please take care that you have redacted all personal information including number plates, reference numbers and QR codes (which may reveal vehicle information when scanned).
We'd like to remind Forumites to please avoid political debate on the Forum. This is to keep it a safe and useful space for MoneySaving discussions. Threads that are - or become - political in nature may be removed in line with the Forum’s rules. Thank you for your understanding.

Popla Appeal Sense Check

Hi All,
Hoping you can spare a minute to cast an eye over an appeal I will be sending to Popla due to an initial rejection from APCOA.
I have collated the resources that I feel applicable to help my appeal from sticky pages and forums from this website (Thankyou all).
Facts:
  • Lease car via work
  • Driver used Heathrow T3 drop off  on 17/09/22 and observed signs indicating £5 drop off fee applied, however did not come across expected mechanical barrier to pay. Therefore assumed not in operation yet. Driver visited again on 26/09/22 and again did not observe any signage indication that fees are only payable online.
  • Became aware 1-2 weeks after through friends that fee's did apply and retrospectively paid 06/09/22 (selected on further date back possibly/3 days).
  • In the interim, car lease company received PCN and notified them that I was the hirer of the vehicle
  • First PCN received to myself as hirer of the vehicle 30/09/22.
I made the naive mistake of appealing to APCOA without first researching online/coming across here which has received the below rejection. My initial appeal does state I had dropped my partner off, however I have not stated/confirmed who the driver was.  In essence, my view is that I admitted I was in the car dropping my partner off to the airport, however have not provided any evidence who was actually driving.....
I have since researched online/come across here to determine what should have been my best action, however now wish to follow the next best steps.

  1. In regards to assessing my situation in light of all the above, would you be advising me to appeal to Popla?
  2. If so, do you suggest any edits to my proposed appeal? As I am the hirer of the vehicle, do I need to adjust any further references around the registered keeper?
  3. If appealing, should I be waiting the full 28 days before sending to Popla?
  4. Any other suggestions/recommendations?
Thanks for your time.









«1

Comments

  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 144,191 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 18 October 2022 at 3:36PM
    My initial appeal does state I had dropped my partner off, however I have not stated/confirmed who the driver was. 
    By those words I say you have. Oh dear, 100% guaranteed winning POPLA point is in the bin but let's hope they don't notice.

    Keep all the POFA stuff in anyway.  I didn't read it all but does it refer to paragraphs 13/14 of schedule 4, NOT PARA 9?).

    Add SPECIFICALLY to the 'unclear signs' point near the start of it, that whilst the signs mention the £5 NONE of them quantify the £80.  Therefore, there was no contract to pay a parking charge of £80 and the case fails due to failing to draw the driver's attention to the penalty clause and £80 amount. In the Beavis case, the £85 was framed in black and in large bold print. Here, the signs do not even have £80 on them, or if one does, it is not enough because that one was not seen and the others say nothing about agreeing to pay £80.



    (I hope for your second one incurred on 26/9 you will be appealing as hirer/lessee and using the Edna Basher lease car appeal?). 
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Afternoon, 
    That section currently below;

    4) If APCOA want to make use of the Keeper Liability provisions in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 and APCOA have not issued and delivered a parking charge notice to the driver in the place where the parking event took place, the Notice to Keeper must meet the strict requirements and timetable set out in the Schedule (in particular paragraph 9). I have had no evidence that APCOA have complied with these BPA Code requirements for ANPR issued tickets so require them to evidence their compliance to POPLA.

    Should I be changing this to paragraphs 13/14 instead of "in particular paragraph 9) ?

    I shall add that section you provided.
    Unfortunately I was a double donut and had already submitted my good faith appeal without first coming across here so will be POPLA appealing 2 off these soon!


    Thanks for your help

  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 144,191 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Should I be changing this to paragraphs 13/14 instead of "in particular paragraph 9) ?
    Yes.

    But read other APCOA POPLA Heathrow threads to see what their evidence pack looks like.

    The important point to win this (assuming POPLA decide you admitted to driving and dumped the winning POFA point) is what I said already, above.  You can use APCOA's own photos from someone else's evidence pack to demonstrate the lack of "£80" on 19 out of 20 signs.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 59,252 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Even if you lose at PoPLA, APCOA have to date never instigated court proceedings. There is no need to pay unless a judge says so.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister. :D
    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
  • Thanks for all your help. I have adjusted to the below Draft.
    I have searched the forums attempting to find pictures of the Heathrow signs but have had no luck. Can someone post me a thread link to them if they know. Thanks


  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 144,191 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    You just need to search for the words I gave you in bold in my earlier reply.

    We don't have a thread link and we would merely be doing the same search as you (but honestly it is far better that you do the research).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Le_Kirk
    Le_Kirk Posts: 23,665 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    I asked Auntie Google using the following words "Heathrow drop off charge signs" changing the search to images and was inundated with signs!
  • Thanks both. 
    Auntie google was a good suggestion and she kindly provided me some nice signage to back my claims.  Lodged the appeal today. Appreciate all the help :)
  • Well, Apcoa has responded to the appeal;

    APCOA have had a contract in place with Heathrow Airport since 01/10/2021. The current landowner’s authority runs until 30/12/2029. Please find a copy enclosed. It has been redacted to ensure the privacy of the landowner. This is a rolling contract and is currently valid.

    Terms and restrictions of parking are signposted throughout any restricted areas and on the entrance/exit of private grounds.

    Any driver parked in breach of the displayed terms or restrictions will be issued a Parking charge notice containing evidence from our ANPR cameras.

    APCOA are an approved operator of the BPA; under which guidelines the notice will be issued. Notices are issued by ANPR by post:

    Terms of parking are sign posted upon entry to, throughout and along all exit routes of this area. Heathrow Airport is situated on private land where APCOA have been appointed to enforce their terms on their behalf. The Terminal Drop-Off Charge applies to Heathrow’s terminal forecourts, the passenger drop-off areas located in front of the terminal buildings. There are signs on the roads in and around the airport to ensure drivers are aware of the chargeable zones.

    This area is a dedicated drop off zone for vehicles dropping passengers off at Heathrow Airport. A payment is required to be paid online or by phone by midnight of the following day.

    Signage is compliant with the BPA code of practice and APCOA can confirm that we are an approved operator.

    Terms or restrictions are given upon signage displayed upon entry to and throughout this site and brought to the adequate attention of the motorist. The signage is laid out in a simple format to communicate the tariff payable, the terms of parking, and the amount payable if there is a breach. The signage further details other actions we may take.

    As per the BPA code of practice states, signs are conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand

    Having entered onto private land, these terms are accepted, and all vehicles must adhere to them.

    This vehicle was seen to enter the drop off zone on xx at 15:02 and exited at 15:07 on the same day. Payment is required to be made online or by phone by midnight of the following day. As no payment was received within this timeframe, a parking charge was issued correctly.

    Upon being issued a notice, the driver made an appeal to APCOA claiming there was no barrier or facility to make payment and they thought this must be pending introduction of the drop off charge. They have also claimed they paid but could not go back far enough in the calendar.

    The ANPR images provided show the vehicle enter and exit the drop off area.

    1. a)  A search of the payment system for this location confirms that the VRN in question remained unpaid.

    2. b)  Signage is displayed at the approach to this drop off area, along the location and upon exit, advising all motorists that a payment to use the drop off area is required to be made online or by phone.

    3. c)  A payment is allowed to be paid up to midnight on the day after the drop off event.

    4. d)  On this occasion, the motorist was allowed over 41 hours to make a payment. The motorist chose not to do this.

    5. e)  The driver entered onto private land freely and in full acceptance of the terms of the drop off area, clearly displayed. A tariff and terms and conditions are offered; and by using the drop off area to drop passengers off, these are accepted.

      he driver now appeals to POPLA on further grounds.

      The appellant has quoted POFA 2012, that the amount demanded is a penalty, misleading and unclear signage, no landowner contract nor legal standing to form contracts or charge drivers, no cause for requesting details from the DVLA, the photo evidence appears doctored, and lack of good faith and intention. They have also referenced byelaws, and why this would result in an obligation to pay APCOA, and that the amount demanded is a penalty and punitive, contravening the Consumer Rights Act 2015. The appellant has further stated APCOA is in breach of paragraph 13.1 of the BPA Code of Practice. The appellant again states that the PCN does not show the reasonable cause APCOA has for asking the DVLA for details. The appellant states the signage does not comply with road traffic regulations and are misleading and the terms of payment are not clear.

      Whilst the appellant has quoted POFA, the appellant admitted being the driver in their initial appeal to APCOA.

      This PCN is not issued as a “Penalty” or a “Fine”. Referring to the Supreme Court decision in Beavis -v- Parking Eye, a motorist who parks in a car park does so on the terms displayed on the noticeboards and thereby enters a contract with the Operator and an agreement to pay the charge displayed. The Judgement accepted that whilst the charge had the characteristics of a penalty in that the Operator did not suffer any specific financial loss, it was commercially justifiable as it was neither improper in its purpose nor manifestly excessive in its amount. The Judgement accepted that such a charge can be made to protect a legitimate interest, namely the efficient operation of the car park, without it being classed or treated as a penalty. You may refer to this judgement at supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2015-0116.html.

      The amount of the PCN issued is in compliance with sections 20.5 – 20.7 of the British Parking Association’s (BPA’s) Code of Practice, in which it states that they do not expect the amount the motorist is being asked to pay to exceed £100.00. The full amount of the PCN in this instance is £80.00 (which was reduced to £40.00 for payment within the first 14 days after the issue of the PCN), which is in line with the provisions of that Code. Under the circumstances, our course of action is considered to have been entirely reasonable. Our company is legitimately pursuing the outstanding balance resulting from a failure to abide by the terms and conditions attached to and displayed clearly at the Terminal Drop-Off zone.

      APCOA do not own the site at which this PCN has been issued, however have been appointed by the person that does own the land to carry out Parking Management Services. APCOA has the written authorisation of the landowner in accordance with the BPA Code of Practice.

      We must also advise that the lawful basis APCOA has for processing data is legitimate interest on behalf of our client Heathrow Airport Ltd to pursue an unpaid parking charge. We refer to section 6.4 of the terms and conditions that in the event of a breach of the terms and conditions section, we may use the vehicle registration details to request and obtain details of the vehicle’s registered keeper from the DVLA.

      The photographic evidence provided by APCOA is from the ANPR cameras positioned on entry and exit of the Terminal drop off zone.

      The Consumer Rights Act 2015 does not apply in this instance.

      The appellant has referenced paragraph 13.1 of the BPA Code of Practice. There is also section 13.4 which states, “Unauthorised motorists will not be entitled to the minimum time period of 5 minutes for a consideration period in spaces designated for specific users e.g., Blue Badge holders, pick up/drop off or where parking is prohibited such as hatched areas in front of emergency exits, or on entry and exit ramps etc.” As such, motorists who use the Drop Off Zone are not entitled to a consideration period to review the terms and conditions of the site and by entering the site, the appellant has entered the parking contract and are bound by its terms and conditions.

      There is no requirement for a PCN to explain the reasonable cause APCOA has had to request the registered keeper details of a vehicle from the DVLA. This request is included in the terms and conditions of the drop off zone.

      In line with the requirements of the BPA Code of Practice, the signs at this location are noticeable and understandable, and written in plain language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand. The terms and conditions displayed on the signage apply to all drivers using the Terminal Drop-Off zones.

      Payment must be made for each visit to the Terminal drop off zone even if stopping or dropping off has not occurred. Signage is displayed at the approach to this drop off area, along the location and upon exit, advising all motorists that a payment is required for each visit to the drop off area, and this is required to be made online or by phone.

      We refer to POPLA Case: 0510062227

      It states in section 20.3 of the Code of Practice: “If the driver breaks the contract, for example by not paying the tariff fee or by staying longer than the time paid for, or if they trespass on your land, they may be liable for parking charges. These charges must be shown clearly and fully to the driver on the signs which contain your terms and conditions.” It also states in section 19.3: “Specific parking-terms signage tells drivers what your terms and conditions are, including your parking charges. You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Keep a record of where all the signs are. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand.”

      A site plan and photographic evidence of the signage in place in the car park is included in this pack. The terms and conditions of this car park are: “£5.00 per visit – it advises the motorist to ‘Pay online or by phone, and the website address is also provided: heathrow.com/drop-off. Included in the signage is a contact number 0330 008 5600’ Signage further advises that ’Payment must be made by Midnight on the day after your visit”. The signage also states a Parking Charge of £80 will be issued for failure to comply with the terms and conditions of the site.

      Advance payments for drop-offs can be made and will last for 12 months. Payments can be made on the day of drop-off, or by midnight the next day. Considering the above APCOA are satisfied that this notice was issued correctly and should stand.

      Heathrow Airport is situated on private land, where the driver enters willingly into agreement of the displayed restrictions and conditions around the Airport; also given on their website.

      It is the driver’s responsibility to ensure they are familiar with and adhere to these whilst entering and remaining on the property. It is the driver’s responsibility to advise their passengers accordingly.

      Liability Trail

      The appellant confirmed in their appeal to POPLA that they were the driver of the vehicle. As driver liability has been established, we will not be relying on POFA to enforce keeper liability. The PCN was not issued under PoFA, therefore we will not be making any claims under the Act.

  • Any advice I should provide in comments to the Popla regarding this counter appeal/statement?

    Just to be clear I did state in original appeal that " I dropped my partner off.." (appealed before coming across here)
    They have used this as confirmation that I confirmed I was driving. I will be appealing to this stating that I did indeed drop my partner off to the airport, however I was not driving whilst dropping my partner off to the airport and this comment does not provide any confirmation of the fact. I was not driving and will use my rights not to disclaim who had been driving at the time.

    Any other inputs? Thanks 
Meet your Ambassadors

🚀 Getting Started

Hi new member!

Our Getting Started Guide will help you get the most out of the Forum

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 348.2K Banking & Borrowing
  • 252.1K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 452.3K Spending & Discounts
  • 240.7K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 617K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 175.6K Life & Family
  • 253.9K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 16K Discuss & Feedback
  • 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards

Is this how you want to be seen?

We see you are using a default avatar. It takes only a few seconds to pick a picture.