Chance of FPN for crossing an asymmetric red light on a specific lane?

Ectophile

Ermia said:

Grey_Critic said:

It is all about Lane Dicipline - see it every day cars in wrong lane at junctions

I am not sure what you are suggesting regarding my questions 

Some people on this forum love posting snide comments, without even bothering to read the original question properly.

Grey_Critic

Ectophile said:

Some people on this forum love posting snide comments, without even bothering to read the original question properly.

There are times when the question actually invites such comments.

Why do we keep questions about things that have not actually happened? If you get a ticket then ask the question but until then there are far more important things to worry about.

Jenni_D

Ermia said:

That junction looks like an accident waiting to happen, with the road narrowing (cycle lane) being so close to the junction. 🙄

TooManyPoints

Just for clarity, if a fixed penalty is considered appropriate, you will not receive a Fixed Penalty Notice (FPN). After the driver has been identified a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty may be made. The two are quite different.

Ermia

Grey_Critic said:

Why do we keep questions about things that have not actually happened? 

It's near my new place so I should know how to interpret the traffic light, as I will pass those lights a thousand times from now on. It's not a good idea to do the potentially wrong thing all the time and then keep waiting for tickets forever.

TooManyPoints said:

Just for clarity, if a fixed penalty is considered appropriate, you will not receive a Fixed Penalty Notice (FPN). After the driver has been identified a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty may be made. The two are quite different.

It might be off-topic to this question but you pointed to my biggest fear of driving. The problem is: a conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty will either lead to FPN or Court, and I will never go to court even if I can prove I'm innocent, because of immigration law (TL;DR: an undefeated police report in court could lead to deportation from the UK, whereas accepting and paying FPN does less damage to UK residency but still causes visa issues). So If I get the OFFER of FPN then it will lead to an FPN, unless I can informally persuade the police they were wrong.   
I wonder if there is a chance to negotiate an FPN Offer with the police without going to court, specifically in cases where you are caught by police's mistake, without needing to prove it in court? That would be a relief to me as I always drive with fear.
Just tonight, I was mistakenly flashed by a red light camera without even crossing the red light or speeding (don't know why it flashed -- below is the moment it flashed at me when I actually stopped). Whenever a potential case of FPN happens, such as a camera flashing or passing a confusing traffic light, I'll have cold sweat for 14 days. I even watch dashcam footage after driving to make sure I didn't break the law, but still, the fear is there. The combination of police + immigration law in the UK isn't fair. Not sure if it has a solution.
 

TooManyPoints

The acceptance of a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) does not lead to a FPN. There are no further notices. The COFP provides the details of what to do if you wish to accept it and you simply follow its instructions. It is "conditional" because it depends on you complying with those instructions - paying the sum requested and submitting your driving licence. If you fail to comply then court action will follow. It may sound as if I am being pedantic but the difference between the two is important as the end result for non-acceptance is completely different.

You are unlikely to persuade the police that they are wrong unless there has clearly been an error. Anything that is disputed can only be argued in court and they will usually not entertain any debate. In your current case you are arguing that the layout of the junction contributed to you jumping the red light. If you want to argue that, then court is the only place you can do so. Once court proceedings have begun the offer of a fixed penalty is off the table.

With red light offences, the decision whether to offer a FP or not is normally based on the "time into red" that the driver crossed the line. Unlike speeding there is no published guidance on the criteria used as far as I know.

As a personal observation I believe you are over-egging the matter when you say "....an undefeated police report in court could lead to deportation from the UK,". Provided you are here otherwise legally, I would suggest the possibility of you being deported for jumping a red light is as close to zero as it gets. If you are "driving with fear" on that basis, you might consider whether you ought to be driving at all.

[Deleted User]

Jenni_D said:

Ermia said:

That junction looks like an accident waiting to happen, with the road narrowing (cycle lane) being so close to the junction. 🙄

Welcome to "car is king" Britain and how we riders get treated just trying to get about safely!

Jenni_D

Deleted_User said:

Jenni_D said:

Ermia said:

That junction looks like an accident waiting to happen, with the road narrowing (cycle lane) being so close to the junction. 🙄

Welcome to "car is king" Britain and how we riders get treated just trying to get about safely!

I'm not saying they shouldn't do it - just that the way the junction is currently configured is terrible; the right lane should be reverted to right-turn-only to minimise such risks.

Manxman_in_exile

Grey_Critic said:

It is all about Lane Dicipline - see it every day cars in wrong lane at junctions

But the OP wasn't in the wrong lane*, were they?  Weren't they in the right-hand lane wanting to go straight ahead and the lane markings in that right-hand lane allow them to go straight ahead?

Isn't the problem that the lights adjacent to the left hand lane have two green lights (one "ordinary" green and a green "straight on" arrow) while the lights adjacent to the right-hand lane (and apparently governing that lane) have only three normal lights and no green right filter arrow?

What has confused the OP is that they were waiting in the right-hand lane to go straight on (which the lane markings permit) when the lights in the left-hand lane (straight on only) have turned green while the light in the right-hand lane has remained red.

The OP is (or was) confused as to whether (1) they could proceed straight ahead as the lane markings allowed them to do so and the lights to the left were on green for straight ahead, or (2) they had to wait until the lights to their right were on green.

That arrangement of the lights seems daft to me, unless it is by design and is intended to allow for the bottle-neck immediately after the lights by allowing only one lane of traffic to go straight ahead at any one time. (See comment by @Jenni_D).  But that raises the question of why allow traffic in the right lane to go straight on at all, and not retrict it to right turn only

I wouldn't be surprised if the lane markings are wrong.

And what is the point of the additional straight on green arrow on the lights to the left?  You can only go straight on from that lane, can't you?


*I'm assuming by "wrong lane" that you mean that the OP was in the wrong lane to go straight ahead and not just that they weren't in the most appropriate lane to go straight on.

Manxman_in_exile

daveyjp said:

Similar to lights near me.  Two lanes ahead, right lane is also right turn.

When lights first change it is ahead green arrow only, for both lanes, then a few seconds later the right filter lights.  If in the right lane and going straight ahead you can go, if turning right wait for the right turn filter.

Coming the other way left for ahead snd right lane is for right turn only.  First green is a green arrow ahead and there is a sign telling traffic not to turn right whilst red is showing, this eventuallh changes to a right arrow green.

But isn't the problem that the lights at the junction the OP is talking about are nothing at all like the lights you describe?  (The lights you describe sound sensible whereas the OP's lights are just daft).

1.  There are no green straight on arrows in both lanes at the OP's junction.  There is only a single straight on green arrow and that is for the left-hand lane.  That arrow is illuminated while the lights for the right-hand lane are still on red.

2.  There is no green right turn filter for the right hand lane at the OP's junction.  Just three normal lights.

It looks to me like either they've installed the wrong set of lights at that junction and/or the lane markings are wrong.  The OP might be right when they suggest:

Ermia said:

... To give more context, the markings on both roads allow for going straight now. However, the markings have been different in the past:

• Until 2012, the right-hand lane was for turning right only
• Around 2018: both lanes were for going straight only 
• Now, the right-hand lane is for going straight AND turning right

and that is possibly why the traffic light configuration is asymmetric. It might have been installed when the right-hand lane was only for turning right...