Insulation

villieb

What are examples of internal insulation? Insulation borads attached to existing external walls but from the inside?

FreeBear

villieb said: What are examples of internal insulation? Insulation borads attached to existing external walls but from the inside?

In a nutshell, yes. The boards could be EPS (polystyrene), Celotex/Kingspan (Polyurethane foam), cork, or woodfiber. Some (EPS & PUR) can be obtained ready bonded to sheets of plasterboard. This reduces the amount of work needed, but are more expensive.

You can also build up some studwork on the wall, fill with fibreglass batts (sheeps wool, blown cellulose, and other "natural" fibres could be used). But you end up losing more floor space to get the same level of insulation.

chris_n

Apodemus said:

chris_n said:

External insulation has the advantage (?) of keeping the thermal mass inside the insulated envelope so providing a more stable temperature which is perfect if you have a low temperature heat source and are at home a lot.
Internal insulation has the advantage (?) of having little thermal mass inside the insulated envelope so heats up much more quickly which is perfect if you are out more than you are in.

Unless, of course, the internal insulation forms part of your thermal mass...

Wouldn't be very good insulation then would it. The whole point of insulation is to prevent heat movement. If the heat was able to be in the insulation it wouldn't be able to get out! The heat capacity of insulation materials is tiny. 

Apodemus

chris_n said:

Apodemus said:

chris_n said:

External insulation has the advantage (?) of keeping the thermal mass inside the insulated envelope so providing a more stable temperature which is perfect if you have a low temperature heat source and are at home a lot.
Internal insulation has the advantage (?) of having little thermal mass inside the insulated envelope so heats up much more quickly which is perfect if you are out more than you are in.

Unless, of course, the internal insulation forms part of your thermal mass...

Wouldn't be very good insulation then would it. The whole point of insulation is to prevent heat movement. If the heat was able to be in the insulation it wouldn't be able to get out! The heat capacity of insulation materials is tiny. 

There is a whole movement of high thermal mass buildings that would disagree!  It is entirely possible for walls to absorb and store heat, while slowing the movement of heat from inside to outside.

chris_n

Apodemus said:

chris_n said:

Apodemus said:

chris_n said:

External insulation has the advantage (?) of keeping the thermal mass inside the insulated envelope so providing a more stable temperature which is perfect if you have a low temperature heat source and are at home a lot.
Internal insulation has the advantage (?) of having little thermal mass inside the insulated envelope so heats up much more quickly which is perfect if you are out more than you are in.

Unless, of course, the internal insulation forms part of your thermal mass...

Wouldn't be very good insulation then would it. The whole point of insulation is to prevent heat movement. If the heat was able to be in the insulation it wouldn't be able to get out! The heat capacity of insulation materials is tiny. 

There is a whole movement of high thermal mass buildings that would disagree!  It is entirely possible for walls to absorb and store heat, while slowing the movement of heat from inside to outside.

Care to enlighten me with examples? You could also show me how to retrofit this technology to the inside of an existing house.

markin

chris_n said:

Apodemus said:

chris_n said:

Apodemus said:

chris_n said:

External insulation has the advantage (?) of keeping the thermal mass inside the insulated envelope so providing a more stable temperature which is perfect if you have a low temperature heat source and are at home a lot.
Internal insulation has the advantage (?) of having little thermal mass inside the insulated envelope so heats up much more quickly which is perfect if you are out more than you are in.

Unless, of course, the internal insulation forms part of your thermal mass...

Wouldn't be very good insulation then would it. The whole point of insulation is to prevent heat movement. If the heat was able to be in the insulation it wouldn't be able to get out! The heat capacity of insulation materials is tiny. 

There is a whole movement of high thermal mass buildings that would disagree!  It is entirely possible for walls to absorb and store heat, while slowing the movement of heat from inside to outside.

Care to enlighten me with examples? You could also show me how to retrofit this technology to the inside of an existing house.

On new builds they use the blocks on the inner skin, not really practical for retrofit but you could. 

Apodemus

chris_n said:

Apodemus said:

chris_n said:

Apodemus said:

chris_n said:

External insulation has the advantage (?) of keeping the thermal mass inside the insulated envelope so providing a more stable temperature which is perfect if you have a low temperature heat source and are at home a lot.
Internal insulation has the advantage (?) of having little thermal mass inside the insulated envelope so heats up much more quickly which is perfect if you are out more than you are in.

Unless, of course, the internal insulation forms part of your thermal mass...

Wouldn't be very good insulation then would it. The whole point of insulation is to prevent heat movement. If the heat was able to be in the insulation it wouldn't be able to get out! The heat capacity of insulation materials is tiny. 

There is a whole movement of high thermal mass buildings that would disagree!  It is entirely possible for walls to absorb and store heat, while slowing the movement of heat from inside to outside.

Care to enlighten me with examples? You could also show me how to retrofit this technology to the inside of an existing house.

Pages 57 onwards of this:  https://app-hes-pubs-prod-neu-01.azurewebsites.net/api/file/dabb77eb-0b56-488c-952e-addd009c58c3
 or this: https://app-hes-pubs-prod-neu-01.azurewebsites.net/api/file/ea29b2a2-c789-410d-8ade-a67b0108fe38

or advice from these guys: https://www.lime.org.uk/applications/retrofit-insulation-systems-for-old-buildings/internal-wall-insulation-system.html?dir=asc&order=course_date

or suppliers websites such as : https://www.isohemp.com/en/hemp-blocks-inner-insulating-lining-case-renovation

Then there are a lot of indiidual bloggers and youtubers who are doing this sort of thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1pclbkFZ5I

https://www.backtoearth.co.uk/insulating-old-buildings/

I could go on...

chris_n

markin, Apodemus, you are both of course correct, you can insulate the inside but you are missing the point I am making.
If you have the insulation on the inside then you have removed (isolated) the thermal mass from the room. The insulation stops the original wall from being warmed up as quickly so prevents the wall from being able to store heat (or cold) and then give it back to the room when the room temperature changes.
I'm certainly not saying internal insulation is a bad thing, it is often the easiest and cheapest way to do it. 
I was merely highlighting the difference in the way a building will respond and perform.

Apodemus

No, I've not missed the point at all.  If you increase the wall thickness by adding more thermal mass on the inside, in the form of a natural fibre insulation, you get a greater thermal mass and a slower passage of heat from inside to outside.  It won't work if you leave a gap between the new internal insulation and the old wall, which is why all the stuff I linked to shows the new internal insulation linked into the thermal mass by a fill layer between the insulation boards and the original wall.

chris_n

No you are not adding to the thermal mass with your natural fibre, you are adding to the mass but that isn't the same thing. You are creating a layer of insulation that slows the passage of heat and stops the wall acting as a heat store. If the wall was inside the insulation the wall would warm up first then retain the heat because it can't get past the external insulation allowing the heat to flow back into the room.