Distance selling laws. Refund on a sofa deposit after being sacked.

shiraz99

HillStreetBlues said:

MH1927 said:

They do apply they state within Part 1, Regulation 5 (Other Definitions)

"“distance contract” means a contract concluded between a trader and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service-provision scheme without the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication up to and including the time at which the contract is concluded."

So the CCR's do not define it as a distance contract.

That is concluded, not started .

You're missing the phrases "exclusive use...of distance communication up to..the contract is concluded". This means anything leading up to the contract conclusion, ie,  visiting the store, engaging with staff to enquire about the sofa, etc. The whole process of purchasing that sofa was started in the store, hence why CCRs do not apply.

HillStreetBlues

Aylesbury_Duck said:

It's only considered a "distant sale" if there is solely remote communication between consumer and retailer up to and including the point the contract was formed.  OP describes visiting the showroom, found a sofa they liked and spoke to a salesman (or perhaps took a card off a desk and didn't actually meet anyone, which might be helpful...).  Therefore, it's not a distant sale.

If OP did speak to a salesman, and the retailer knows their stuff, they will find it hard to prove it was all done off-premises.

It states "The business and consumer only engage in distance communication (such as online or telephone) until the contract is finalised."

There is no contract until the OP agrees one via the phone.

What you have linked to is that from the start of the contract until it is finalised there must only be distance communication.
So from order time to delivery time. If in-between that time there is any face to face contact the these regs won't apply.

Why do you think the they want the OP to visit the store to pay the balance?   in doing so this would mean that there was face to face contact before the contract is concluded, so the regs  wouldn't apply.
The store must know this as in this day and age they would be no reason to have to visit the store to pay when the deposit was taken on-line.

Aylesbury_Duck

HillStreetBlues said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

It's only considered a "distant sale" if there is solely remote communication between consumer and retailer up to and including the point the contract was formed.  OP describes visiting the showroom, found a sofa they liked and spoke to a salesman (or perhaps took a card off a desk and didn't actually meet anyone, which might be helpful...).  Therefore, it's not a distant sale.

If OP did speak to a salesman, and the retailer knows their stuff, they will find it hard to prove it was all done off-premises.

It states "The business and consumer only engage in distance communication (such as online or telephone) until the contract is finalised."

There is no contract until the OP agrees one via the phone.

What you have linked to is that from the start of the contract until it is finalised there must only be distance communication.
So from order time to delivery time. If in-between that time there is any face to face contact the these regs won't apply.

Why do you think the they want the OP to visit the store to pay the balance?   in doing so this would mean that there was face to face contact before the contract is concluded, so the regs  wouldn't apply.
The store must know this as in this day and age they would be no reason to have to visit the store to pay when the deposit was taken on-line.

No, that's where you are incorrect.  

Speculation on the store's motives isn't relevant, although you may be speculating correctly.  They know (or should know) that it is already not a distance sale.  It doesn't matter how OP pays the balance, it will never be a distance sale.

screech_78

As others have said, it’s not a distance sale so you can’t use that as a get out clause. 

I’m sorry to hear you’ve lost your job, however that’s completely irrelevant to any consumer rights you have. 

You’ll need to look at being able to prove the order is incorrect and hope they either amend/refund. If you can’t, I don’t see you getting anywhere with this. You don’t need to sign a document to have a valid contract. 

theoretica

I take it the shop know you visited in person?  Rather than, say, being given the salesperson's card by a friend who had visited? 

HillStreetBlues

Aylesbury_Duck said:

No, that's where you are incorrect.  

Speculation on the store's motives isn't relevant, although you may be speculating correctly.  They know (or should know) that it is already not a distance sale.  It doesn't matter how OP pays the balance, it will never be a distance sale.

No, that's where I am correct


https://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/distance-sales/consumer-contracts-distance-sales

What do the Regulations cover?

Most contracts made and negotiated between traders and consumers are covered, and the Regulations split these contracts into three types:

off-premises contracts. There are four types of these contracts:
1. A contract made where a consumer and trader are together and agree the contract in a place that is not the trader's business premises - for example, in a consumer's home or place of work

2. A contract made where a consumer and trader are together and an offer is made by the consumer in a place that is not the trader's business premises - for example, where a consumer signs an order form during a visit to their home and the trader agrees the contract later
3. A contract that is agreed on a trader's business premises or through any means of distance communication immediately after a meeting with a consumer in a place that is not the trader's business premises. For example, a salesperson meets a consumer in the high street and convinces them of the benefits of buying a water filter; the consumer is then taken to the local office of the trader to sign the contract for the equipment. An example of this scenario using distance communication would be if the salesperson in the high street meets the consumer and immediately enters into a contract with them using a tablet computer
4. A contract made with the consumer during an excursion organised by the trader with the aim of selling or promoting goods or services to the consumer. The Regulations do not define an 'excursion'; however, it is possible that this will cover a situation where a trader meets a consumer on holiday and invites them to travel with the trader to a different venue to be sold goods or services

It is clearly classed as an off-premises contract.  The OP was not at the traders premises when the contract was agreed.

Manxman_in_exile

HillStreetBlues said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

It's only considered a "distant sale" if there is solely remote communication between consumer and retailer up to and including the point the contract was formed.  OP describes visiting the showroom, found a sofa they liked and spoke to a salesman (or perhaps took a card off a desk and didn't actually meet anyone, which might be helpful...).  Therefore, it's not a distant sale.

If OP did speak to a salesman, and the retailer knows their stuff, they will find it hard to prove it was all done off-premises.

It states "The business and consumer only engage in distance communication (such as online or telephone) until the contract is finalised."

There is no contract until the OP agrees one via the phone.

What you have linked to is that from the start of the contract until it is finalised there must only be distance communication.
So from order time to delivery time. If in-between that time there is any face to face contact the these regs won't apply.

Why do you think the they want the OP to visit the store to pay the balance?   in doing so this would mean that there was face to face contact before the contract is concluded, so the regs  wouldn't apply.
The store must know this as in this day and age they would be no reason to have to visit the store to pay when the deposit was taken on-line.

I understand the point you are trying to make.

But to succeed you would need to persuade the trader (or a judge) that the OP (1) visiting a sofa store, (2) seeing a sofa that he liked and (3) going to the trouble of getting the salesman's details so that he could get back in touch to place an order, were not the first steps of entering into a contract that was agreed and concluded later.

That point might be arguable, but I don't think it's very convincing.  I think most people (and a judge) would decide the visit formed a part of the contracting process...

Aylesbury_Duck

Manxman_in_exile said:

HillStreetBlues said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

It's only considered a "distant sale" if there is solely remote communication between consumer and retailer up to and including the point the contract was formed.  OP describes visiting the showroom, found a sofa they liked and spoke to a salesman (or perhaps took a card off a desk and didn't actually meet anyone, which might be helpful...).  Therefore, it's not a distant sale.

If OP did speak to a salesman, and the retailer knows their stuff, they will find it hard to prove it was all done off-premises.

It states "The business and consumer only engage in distance communication (such as online or telephone) until the contract is finalised."

There is no contract until the OP agrees one via the phone.

What you have linked to is that from the start of the contract until it is finalised there must only be distance communication.
So from order time to delivery time. If in-between that time there is any face to face contact the these regs won't apply.

Why do you think the they want the OP to visit the store to pay the balance?   in doing so this would mean that there was face to face contact before the contract is concluded, so the regs  wouldn't apply.
The store must know this as in this day and age they would be no reason to have to visit the store to pay when the deposit was taken on-line.

I understand the point you are trying to make.

But to succeed you would need to persuade the trader (or a judge) that the OP (1) visiting a sofa store, (2) seeing a sofa that he liked and (3) going to the trouble of getting the salesman's details so that he could get back in touch to place an order, were not the first steps of entering into a contract that was agreed and concluded later.

That point might be arguable, but I don't think it's very convincing.  I think most people (and a judge) would decide the visit formed a part of the contracting process...

Exactly this.

Aylesbury_Duck

HillStreetBlues said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

No, that's where you are incorrect.  

Speculation on the store's motives isn't relevant, although you may be speculating correctly.  They know (or should know) that it is already not a distance sale.  It doesn't matter how OP pays the balance, it will never be a distance sale.

No, that's where I am correct


https://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/distance-sales/consumer-contracts-distance-sales

What do the Regulations cover?

Most contracts made and negotiated between traders and consumers are covered, and the Regulations split these contracts into three types:

off-premises contracts. There are four types of these contracts:
1. A contract made where a consumer and trader are together and agree the contract in a place that is not the trader's business premises - for example, in a consumer's home or place of work

2. A contract made where a consumer and trader are together and an offer is made by the consumer in a place that is not the trader's business premises - for example, where a consumer signs an order form during a visit to their home and the trader agrees the contract later
3. A contract that is agreed on a trader's business premises or through any means of distance communication immediately after a meeting with a consumer in a place that is not the trader's business premises. For example, a salesperson meets a consumer in the high street and convinces them of the benefits of buying a water filter; the consumer is then taken to the local office of the trader to sign the contract for the equipment. An example of this scenario using distance communication would be if the salesperson in the high street meets the consumer and immediately enters into a contract with them using a tablet computer
4. A contract made with the consumer during an excursion organised by the trader with the aim of selling or promoting goods or services to the consumer. The Regulations do not define an 'excursion'; however, it is possible that this will cover a situation where a trader meets a consumer on holiday and invites them to travel with the trader to a different venue to be sold goods or services

It is clearly classed as an off-premises contract.  The OP was not at the traders premises when the contract was agreed.

I disagree, as per Manxman's point.  

I agree that "The OP was not at the traders premises when the contract was agreed", but the contracting process was started in-store.  The point of the distance selling elements of the CCRs is to provide consumers with a reasonable opportunity to see, touch and test an item as they could if they visited a physical store, and return an item they don't consider suitable.  OP literally visited a store and saw, touched and presumably sat on the sofa, so they've had their chance to test it.  If the store knows this and can show it, I doubt a judge would consider it a distance sale.

HillStreetBlues

Manxman_in_exile said:

I understand the point you are trying to make.

Thank you for that.

Manxman_in_exile said:

But to succeed you would need to persuade the trader (or a judge) that the OP (1) visiting a sofa store, (2) seeing a sofa that he liked and (3) going to the trouble of getting the salesman's details so that he could get back in touch to place an order, were not the first steps of entering into a contract that was agreed and concluded later.

That point might be arguable, but I don't think it's very convincing.  I think most people (and a judge) would decide the visit formed a part of the contracting process...

The first steps were certainly at the store, but it's not when the first steps are taken, it is only the last step that matters, where was the contract agreed. This was over the phone.