Distance selling laws. Refund on a sofa deposit after being sacked.

davejohno15

Hello good people!

Whilst in London on holiday a few weeks ago, I visited a sofa showroom (national brand) and found one I liked. As I live in Manchester I took the salesman's card and contacted him a week or two later to discuss placing an order. Everything was done over the phone and as it was a modular sofa, we spent some time going back and forth, checking measurements and deciding on the modules that I wanted. 

The price kept altering (I think he was making it up as he went along) but we settled on a price and the modules. I asked him to send the paperwork to review but he insisted I paid the deposit first and then he would send the order form through to be checked and signed. He wouldn't issue the paperwork first "because the price is for today only."

I paid the deposit and then he emailed the order form through. I was out at the time but he rang me telling me he'd sent it through, to "excuse his bad handwriting and that I would have to pay the remainder of the balance 2 days before delivery in person in the shop" (4 hours away). When challenged on this he suggested I pay in another store nearer to me.... Birmingham. When I opened the email that evening, there was a catalogue of errors on the order form:

1. He'd drawn the sofa the wrong way around so the chaise and arms were on the wrong ends. Therefore the modules he had specified were incorrect;
2. Put down a foot colour that I didn't want, nor was I given the choice when this is an option;
3. No dimensions only internal model numbers of each module which I hadn't had sight of;
4. I wanted clarification that the delivery price printed on the form was actually included in the total price as had been agreed on the phone;
5. He had written it was a 3 seater instead of a 4 seater;
6. Clarification if I could pay in a store in Manchester rather than having to travel to Birmingham or London.

The next day I was sent a whatsapp message with a screenshot of his tablet screen with the module model numbers on and nothing else. The screenshot only showed the incorrect modules he had drawn and written down, not the one's I wanted. The order form was never signed or accepted by me.

A couple of hours later, before I had chance to respond to the salesman, I was called into a meeting with my boss which I thought was the usual 1-2-1, to be told I was being sacked with immediate effect. Clearly, I now had no way of paying for a £4,000 sofa. I messaged the salesman and sent an email to tell him what had happened and to request a refund for the £830 deposit paid the night before. He didn't respond but I caught him on the phone the next day to which he told me it was "out of his hands. To email in to the same email address he'd sent the order confirmation from and he'd pass it onto his manager." I sent the email but never got a response. 

I called the store the next day (Friday last week) and got lucky that the manager answered the phone. He wasn't aware of the situation, told me they didn't have a refund policy, I'd need to send an email in to a different address than I'd been told to send it to the day before and he would refer it to a regional manager. I sent the email on Friday and he said he would come back to me on Monday of this week. I didn't hear anything. I've called the store the last 3 days to be told the manager is in the meeting and he wouldn't be the one dealing with it anyway?!

Because they wanted me to pay the balance in person, this made me think this might be due to the distance selling laws. I've looked the rules and regs up and I think that because the deposit was taken over the phone it should be covered by the distance selling laws. Is this the case? If so, the law has definitely been broken as they did not provide me with the right documents before taking the payment. In fact, I wasn't supplied with any documents before the payment was taken.  

What is my best course of action? I don't think I can request a chargeback from the credit card company until 15 days has elapsed?

Thank you so much for reading and for your guidance! Dave

Aylesbury_Duck

davejohno15 said:

Hello good people!

Whilst in London on holiday a few weeks ago, I visited a sofa showroom (national brand) and found one I liked. As I live in Manchester I took the salesman's card and contacted him a week or two later to discuss placing an order. Everything was done over the phone and as it was a modular sofa, we spent some time going back and forth, checking measurements and deciding on the modules that I wanted. 

The price kept altering (I think he was making it up as he went along) but we settled on a price and the modules. I asked him to send the paperwork to review but he insisted I paid the deposit first and then he would send the order form through to be checked and signed. He wouldn't issue the paperwork first "because the price is for today only."

I paid the deposit and then he emailed the order form through. I was out at the time but he rang me telling me he'd sent it through, to "excuse his bad handwriting and that I would have to pay the remainder of the balance 2 days before delivery in person in the shop" (4 hours away). When challenged on this he suggested I pay in another store nearer to me.... Birmingham. When I opened the email that evening, there was a catalogue of errors on the order form:

1. He'd drawn the sofa the wrong way around so the chaise and arms were on the wrong ends. Therefore the modules he had specified were incorrect;
2. Put down a foot colour that I didn't want, nor was I given the choice when this is an option;
3. No dimensions only internal model numbers of each module which I hadn't had sight of;
4. I wanted clarification that the delivery price printed on the form was actually included in the total price as had been agreed on the phone;
5. He had written it was a 3 seater instead of a 4 seater;
6. Clarification if I could pay in a store in Manchester rather than having to travel to Birmingham or London.

The next day I was sent a whatsapp message with a screenshot of his tablet screen with the module model numbers on and nothing else. The screenshot only showed the incorrect modules he had drawn and written down, not the one's I wanted. The order form was never signed or accepted by me.

A couple of hours later, before I had chance to respond to the salesman, I was called into a meeting with my boss which I thought was the usual 1-2-1, to be told I was being sacked with immediate effect. Clearly, I now had no way of paying for a £4,000 sofa. I messaged the salesman and sent an email to tell him what had happened and to request a refund for the £830 deposit paid the night before. He didn't respond but I caught him on the phone the next day to which he told me it was "out of his hands. To email in to the same email address he'd sent the order confirmation from and he'd pass it onto his manager." I sent the email but never got a response. 

I called the store the next day (Friday last week) and got lucky that the manager answered the phone. He wasn't aware of the situation, told me they didn't have a refund policy, I'd need to send an email in to a different address than I'd been told to send it to the day before and he would refer it to a regional manager. I sent the email on Friday and he said he would come back to me on Monday of this week. I didn't hear anything. I've called the store the last 3 days to be told the manager is in the meeting and he wouldn't be the one dealing with it anyway?!

Because they wanted me to pay the balance in person, this made me think this might be due to the distance selling laws. I've looked the rules and regs up and I think that because the deposit was taken over the phone it should be covered by the distance selling laws. Is this the case? If so, the law has definitely been broken as they did not provide me with the right documents before taking the payment. In fact, I wasn't supplied with any documents before the payment was taken.  

What is my best course of action? I don't think I can request a chargeback from the credit card company until 15 days has elapsed?

Thank you so much for reading and for your guidance! Dave

It's not considered a distance sale because you visited the showroom prior to placing the order.  Therefore, you had the chance to inspect and test a representative sample of the product, which is what you can't do with a true "distance sale".  A chargeback won't work either, because they're prepared to supply the order.  If they delivered the wrong item and refused to resolve the problem then things like chargeback are helpful, but they're not something you can use for what is effectively a change of mind.

Your possible "escape clause" as it were, may be the errors on the order form, although that's probably simply a case of them amending them.  It's not the automatic get-out you want it to be, I'm afraid.  The email is presumably acknowledgement of your payment.  It's not a legal requirement to be given your paperwork before payment, just as Tesco don't need to run up your receipt and hand it to you before you pay.  You can ask to check before you pay, of course, but you didn't.

What do their terms say about refund of deposits?

lisyloo

You haven’t said anything about the sacking, but there are loads of jobs available at the moment so you shouldn’t have an issue with finding another job.

Undervalued

The fact that you have been sacked and are now struggling to pay is completely irrelevant to a discussion about your consumer rights (or lack of them).

So, had you not lost your job would you still be looking for a way out of this purchase?

Even if that is the case, I agree with Aylesbury_Duck that there are no obvious get outs unless (unlikely) the retailer hasn't complied with their own terms and conditions.

To be honest, this might be a situation where you need to try and agree a compromise with them. Even if you just right off the deposit they could still look to you for more money if they can show that their costs exceed that despite not having parted with a brand new sofa.

bris

davejohno15 said:

Hello good people!

Whilst in London on holiday a few weeks ago, I visited a sofa showroom (national brand) and found one I liked. 

The bit that's left is all that's relevant, its not a distance sale.

HillStreetBlues

Aylesbury_Duck said:

It's not considered a distance sale because you visited the showroom prior to placing the order.  Therefore, you had the chance to inspect and test a representative sample of the product, which is what you can't do with a true "distance sale". 

Can you show the relevant legal information to show this is true.

As I see it  the OP while in the store never bought or agreed to buy anything.
The contract only started when the OP agreed a price and paid a deposit. Both of these were done at distance.
So the Consumer Contracts Regulations should apply because the sale was made at distance.


 

Aylesbury_Duck

HillStreetBlues said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

It's not considered a distance sale because you visited the showroom prior to placing the order.  Therefore, you had the chance to inspect and test a representative sample of the product, which is what you can't do with a true "distance sale". 

Can you show the relevant legal information to show this is true.

As I see it  the OP while in the store never bought or agreed to buy anything.
The contract only started when the OP agreed a price and paid a deposit. Both of these were done at distance.
So the Consumer Contracts Regulations should apply because the sale was made at distance.


 

I can.  Take your pick of any number of sites.  Here's one, selected at random: https://harperjames.co.uk/article/distance-selling-contracts-and-the-consumer-contracts-regulations/#section-3 

It's only considered a "distant sale" if there is solely remote communication between consumer and retailer up to and including the point the contract was formed.  OP describes visiting the showroom, found a sofa they liked and spoke to a salesman (or perhaps took a card off a desk and didn't actually meet anyone, which might be helpful...).  Therefore, it's not a distant sale.

If OP did speak to a salesman, and the retailer knows their stuff, they will find it hard to prove it was all done off-premises.

MH1927

So the Consumer Contracts Regulations should apply because the sale was made at distance.

They do apply they state within Part 1, Regulation 5 (Other Definitions)

"“distance contract” means a contract concluded between a trader and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service-provision scheme without the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication up to and including the time at which the contract is concluded."

So the CCR's do not define it as a distance contract.

pinkshoes

davejohno15 said:

Hello good people!

Whilst in London on holiday a few weeks ago, I visited a sofa showroom (national brand) and found one I liked. As I live in Manchester I took the salesman's card and contacted him a week or two later to discuss placing an order. Everything was done over the phone and as it was a modular sofa, we spent some time going back and forth, checking measurements and deciding on the modules that I wanted. 

The price kept altering (I think he was making it up as he went along) but we settled on a price and the modules. I asked him to send the paperwork to review but he insisted I paid the deposit first and then he would send the order form through to be checked and signed. He wouldn't issue the paperwork first "because the price is for today only."

I paid the deposit and then he emailed the order form through. I was out at the time but he rang me telling me he'd sent it through, to "excuse his bad handwriting and that I would have to pay the remainder of the balance 2 days before delivery in person in the shop" (4 hours away). When challenged on this he suggested I pay in another store nearer to me.... Birmingham. When I opened the email that evening, there was a catalogue of errors on the order form:

1. He'd drawn the sofa the wrong way around so the chaise and arms were on the wrong ends. Therefore the modules he had specified were incorrect;
2. Put down a foot colour that I didn't want, nor was I given the choice when this is an option;
3. No dimensions only internal model numbers of each module which I hadn't had sight of;
4. I wanted clarification that the delivery price printed on the form was actually included in the total price as had been agreed on the phone;
5. He had written it was a 3 seater instead of a 4 seater;
6. Clarification if I could pay in a store in Manchester rather than having to travel to Birmingham or London.

The next day I was sent a whatsapp message with a screenshot of his tablet screen with the module model numbers on and nothing else. The screenshot only showed the incorrect modules he had drawn and written down, not the one's I wanted. The order form was never signed or accepted by me.

A couple of hours later, before I had chance to respond to the salesman, I was called into a meeting with my boss which I thought was the usual 1-2-1, to be told I was being sacked with immediate effect. Clearly, I now had no way of paying for a £4,000 sofa. I messaged the salesman and sent an email to tell him what had happened and to request a refund for the £830 deposit paid the night before. He didn't respond but I caught him on the phone the next day to which he told me it was "out of his hands. To email in to the same email address he'd sent the order confirmation from and he'd pass it onto his manager." I sent the email but never got a response. 

I called the store the next day (Friday last week) and got lucky that the manager answered the phone. He wasn't aware of the situation, told me they didn't have a refund policy, I'd need to send an email in to a different address than I'd been told to send it to the day before and he would refer it to a regional manager. I sent the email on Friday and he said he would come back to me on Monday of this week. I didn't hear anything. I've called the store the last 3 days to be told the manager is in the meeting and he wouldn't be the one dealing with it anyway?!

Because they wanted me to pay the balance in person, this made me think this might be due to the distance selling laws. I've looked the rules and regs up and I think that because the deposit was taken over the phone it should be covered by the distance selling laws. Is this the case? If so, the law has definitely been broken as they did not provide me with the right documents before taking the payment. In fact, I wasn't supplied with any documents before the payment was taken.  

What is my best course of action? I don't think I can request a chargeback from the credit card company until 15 days has elapsed?

Thank you so much for reading and for your guidance! Dave

Firstly, it is not distance selling as you visited the store, so no point going down this route.

You need to focus on the fact that the order is INCORRECT.

You still have a contract though, so you need  to CORRECT the contract as to what was agree, WRITE to them stating that the contract that has been sent is incorrect, you have now attached the correct version of what was agreed for £4000, and say that once they sign the new version you will pay the balance.

If they will not agree to the contract (as originally agreed) IN WRITING then offer to cancel it. That way you get your deposit back. If they do agree, you'll have to find a way to pay for it, so good luck job hunting!

HillStreetBlues

MH1927 said:

They do apply they state within Part 1, Regulation 5 (Other Definitions)

"“distance contract” means a contract concluded between a trader and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service-provision scheme without the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication up to and including the time at which the contract is concluded."

So the CCR's do not define it as a distance contract.

That is concluded, not started .

Aylesbury_Duck

HillStreetBlues said:

MH1927 said:

They do apply they state within Part 1, Regulation 5 (Other Definitions)

"“distance contract” means a contract concluded between a trader and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service-provision scheme without the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication up to and including the time at which the contract is concluded."

So the CCR's do not define it as a distance contract.

That is concluded, not started .

"up to and including" covers the in-store interaction, which is why it isn't a distant sale.