Engine Failure on PCP

Herzlos

shiraz99 said:

Herzlos said:

What's the car worth in running order?

Is the £3k quote with or without the £1k good will?

Your best bet is almost certainly to just fork out and get the repair done, then either keep using the car or sell it on for something else. You can always get Honda to fix it, pay and then try to claim it back through small claims court if you feel it's a defect that should be covered by them.

I would say their best bet is to fully exercise their statutory consumer rights.

What statutory consumer rights on a 5 year old car purchased 3 years earlier? It presumably wasn't defective at point of sale given that it's taken 3 years to fail.

shiraz99

Herzlos said:

shiraz99 said:

Herzlos said:

What's the car worth in running order?

Is the £3k quote with or without the £1k good will?

Your best bet is almost certainly to just fork out and get the repair done, then either keep using the car or sell it on for something else. You can always get Honda to fix it, pay and then try to claim it back through small claims court if you feel it's a defect that should be covered by them.

I would say their best bet is to fully exercise their statutory consumer rights.

What statutory consumer rights on a 5 year old car purchased 3 years earlier? It presumably wasn't defective at point of sale given that it's taken 3 years to fail.

Just because it wasn't visibly defective at the point of sale doesn't mean the fault wasn't inherent at the point of sale. It's not impossible to prove, based on the balance of probabilities, that a (very premature) timing belt failure after only 30K miles on a regularly serviced, low milage car is more likely to be a failure of manufacture rather than something the car owner has done.

Edit: Having just had a quick Google, it seems that this Honda has a timing chain rather than a belt which won't need changing, so even more of a reason why it's likely to be a manufacturing fault as there would be little a driver could do to put excess wear onto it other than running the engine with little oil.

Ectophile

DrEskimo said:

Flight3287462 said:

Is this not the finance company's problem assuming the OP has followed all servicing procedures etc?

No, it's the OP's responsibility. Just because the car is regularly serviced doesn't mean faults don't arise, and the finance company are not liable to pay for any of those repairs.

It's the risk you run with having a car out of warranty. This is irrespective of finance or not.

I disagree entirely with that opinion.

The retailer of the car is liable for up to 6 years if the car fails because of an inherent hault.  If the car was bought on finance, then the finance company is jointly liable with the retailer.

If the OP can show that the car failed prematurely because it had some inherent fault, then the finance company is liable.

Goudy

Ectophile said:

DrEskimo said:

Flight3287462 said:

Is this not the finance company's problem assuming the OP has followed all servicing procedures etc?

No, it's the OP's responsibility. Just because the car is regularly serviced doesn't mean faults don't arise, and the finance company are not liable to pay for any of those repairs.

It's the risk you run with having a car out of warranty. This is irrespective of finance or not.

I disagree entirely with that opinion.

The retailer of the car is liable for up to 6 years if the car fails because of an inherent hault.  If the car was bought on finance, then the finance company is jointly liable with the retailer.

If the OP can show that the car failed prematurely because it had some inherent fault, then the finance company is liable.

That's pretty much how I understand it.

The trouble is, how does the OP show that the car failed prematurely because it had an inherent fault?

Neither Honda nor the dealer will pay to determine this. The OP would have to employ someone reputable to do this at their own cost and there's no guarantee they will find anything conclusive.

I also think there is a bit more to this than just a failed chain.
The OP writes it's a timing issue but has been advised not to drive it.
It has also been to three different garages which both seem to suggest it might be still running somehow.

I am not aware of too many problems with these engines, let alone inherent and common timing problems that write the engine off like this.
Usually timing chains will last the life of the engine unless it's starved of oil.

Flight3287462

You have a point Goudy.  Jumped timing chain?

Grumpy_chap

I think there is something incomplete in the information provided here:

• The OP is a bit vague about what is actually wrong with the car - it is quite possible the OP does not really know any more than they shared.
• Honda have quoted £4k to repair, against which they will make a goodwill gesture of £1k leaving a bill of £3k to be settled by the OP.
• Three other garages have, apparently, said the car is not worth repairing.  Yet cheapest 2017 Civic on Autotrader starting from around £9k - certainly enough of a margin to warrant a £3k repair.  You'd also expect that independent garages would be cheaper than Honda.
• The OP does not seem to have contacted an engine specialist and consider new (recon) engine option.  That seems as though it must be worth investigating.

The thread has also developed to rather polarised comments about consumer rights and the reality, I think, is rather more nuanced here:

• The fact the car is broken does not, of itself, relieve the OP with regard to meeting the finance obligations.
• The finance co can only be liable to the same extent that the supplier would be liable and only if the supplier fails to meet their obligations.
• Any liability on the supplier would be based on the fault being present or developing at the time of purchase.  This would need to be proven and also exclude any contributory factors by (or on behalf of) the OP - incorrect tensioning, low oil event
• If the supplier does have any liability, it would not be a complete refund and give the car back.  After this time, the remedy would be repair and reduction to reflect the beneficial use that the OP has from the part so far.

The OP says "Honda" have offered a £1k contribution to the repair cost.
The best position would be if the OP purchased the car from a Honda Dealer "X", always had the car serviced by "X" and "X" is who the OP means by "Honda"
The other end would be if the OP purchased the car from a back-street trader that is now gone, had the car serviced by a friend and by "Honda", the OP means Honda motor company.
From the thread as a whole, I suspect the OP is nearer the best position in this chain.

On that basis, the goodwill contribution would be in the form that the OP can expect and would satisfy the consumer rights liability of the supplier (and there'd be nothing to pursue the finance company for).  If that is the case, the best the OP can do is to negotiate the proportion of the contribution from "Honda" and the finance company may be helpful to influence that to a more positive assessment.

The supplier is quite at liberty to offer their contribution against their normal rates.
The OP may still find a cheaper overall repair is possible via an independent engine specialist.

Good luck OP, and I hope the above is helpful.

DrEskimo

Ectophile said:

DrEskimo said:

Flight3287462 said:

Is this not the finance company's problem assuming the OP has followed all servicing procedures etc?

No, it's the OP's responsibility. Just because the car is regularly serviced doesn't mean faults don't arise, and the finance company are not liable to pay for any of those repairs.

It's the risk you run with having a car out of warranty. This is irrespective of finance or not.

I disagree entirely with that opinion.

The retailer of the car is liable for up to 6 years if the car fails because of an inherent hault.  If the car was bought on finance, then the finance company is jointly liable with the retailer.

If the OP can show that the car failed prematurely because it had some inherent fault, then the finance company is liable.

Yes sorry I was sloppy with my description. With an inherent fault it’s exactly as you say. 

I was outlining a scenario where it’s just simply an out of warranty repair.

Goudy

Flight3287462 said:

You have a point Goudy.  Jumped timing chain?

Well now, if this is a 1.0 Vtec turbo it will have a kevlar timing belt in oil and not a timing chain, just like Fords Ecoboost.

Honda say the belt is meant to be replaced every 62500 miles (wow that's low) or every 60 months and from what I have just heard, it's an eye wateringly expensive job!

I also just heard from someone in the know these can also suffer from the same problems as the Ecoboost, ie the belt breaks up and clogs the oil galleries and stuffs the oil pump up.

It often takes the Turbo out first as it's very prone if it's starved of oil but engine failure is pretty much on the cards when it happens as everything else is starved of oil also.

If it is this issue, the car is out of it's 3 year warranty but could be within the 60 months/62.5k mileage, which is where their "good will" contribution comes in.

Due to the cars age I doubt you will get a completely costless to yourself fix, but you might want to try pushing Honda UK (rather than the dealer) for more particularly if the car has a full dealer service history.

If you haven't already, go direct to Honda UK's customer support centre and if you are a member of the RAC or AA, they often can help with matters like this. Even the likes of Honest John have been known to lever better outcomes in situations like this.




 

Indout96

Civic Mk10 depend on model, 1.0 is a belt, the 1.5 is a Chain
I have not heard of any known engine problems on the owners clubs (Air con is another issue)
Price will depend on model as the Prestige models are being sold by Honda garages for up to 6K more now than I paid in Feb 2020 so no way is a £3/4K repair a write off.

Definitely worth taking it to a specialist  rather than Honda. Honda quote just over £1k for the air con condenser + fitting. local specialist did full repair inc new condenser for under £600 speaking to Honda UK is a waste of time as although they admit its a manufacturing problem they refuse to do anything as it was 3 years 2 months when mine went.