Plumbing work not fixed fault - when can you withhold payment?

KommanderKeen

I've moved to a new property and the water pressure is clearly extremely high (pipes banging too). For a couple of weeks I controlled it myself by almost entirely closing the stoptap. 

I contacted a plumber asking for them to work out how to control and reduce the pressure. They came and installed a PRV unit. Unfortunately this unit made a continuous loud whine, audible throughout the house, when a tap was turned part on. The plumbers presumed a faulty unit and came to fit a replacement free of charge. The second unit emits the same sound under the same conditions.

It's likely the PRV chosen and installed is not suited to how high the pressure is. The plumber now believes a commercial PRV unit is necessary, one capable of managing higher pressure. 

However, the plumber has now said they believe the work they've done thus far has been reasonable. Also that the high pressure in my property is so unusual that they can't be held responsible for installing an incorrect PRV. Thus, the new commercial grade PRV will now not be fitted free of charge. 

I'm now in a position no better off than when I 'solved' the issue by part-closing my own stoptap. In fact, there's now an unsuitable PRV in place that may or may not burst under strain. And I have a gained reasonably hefty invoice for work that hasn't helped at all and will need to be removed and refitted.

From my point of view:
- The initial issue was inaccurately diagnosed (or even ignored). At the outset they tested the water pressure (or at least volume) with a flow cup. We couldn't get a reading because the flow cup maxed out. Surely this should have been enough warning to pause and consider what solution would be appropriate? I, as a non-plumber, understood that the water pressure in the house was exceptional. Surely, I can expect a plumber to diagnose this properly and take it into account?
- Due to misunderstanding or disregarding the amount of pressure, the PRV unit installed was not appropriate and failed. 
- The second diagnosis - that the 1st PRV must be faulty and just needs replacing - was also inaccurate. And installing the 2nd identical PRV seems to have used up my 'free of charge' token.

I have yet to pay the invoice. 

My understanding is that the issue was clear, present and measurable before work began. It was not an unforeseeable or surprising circumstance. And the plumber has undertaken inappropriate work that hasn't solved the issue.

And as mentioned earlier, I'm in no better position now than before. The existing work will need to be removed to make way for the actual correct solution.

Am I right to expect the tradesperson to come and fix their errors free of charge? Or waive their charge so I can employ someone else to do the work?

MalMonroe

Hi, you say it's new house, so is that new to you, or a new build? If a new build then I'd expect you to be covered by the builder's warranty for this kind of problem.

However, with this plumber, I'd have asked for three quotes from different ones, I think. I'd have wanted to know exactly what the problem was. (And believe me, I'm no plumber/builder/specialist by any means). When I was a homeowner it was normal to just get three quotes for any work that needed to be done. 

I'd really have to say to 'your' plumber that the problem has not been solved by their interference and under those circumstances, I would be unable to consider paying any invoice.

What the plumber said,  " the high pressure in my property is so unusual that they can't be held responsible for installing an incorrect PRV" seems like utter nonsense to me.  Blaming the property? Weird.

Is this a properly qualified and certificated person? Does he belong to any association? If so you can complain to them about his incompetence.

Now, I'd have to get a couple of different plumbers in to diagnose the fault and give their opinions and recommendations and quotes to put the matter right. But I'm with you, if he's messed about replacing things that did not help at all and you are simply back to square one, I don't understand why you would have to pay him. Especially as now you're in the position of having to get another plumber in. Wasted time and energy all round. Send him an invoice for your inconvenience. 

KommanderKeen

Thanks for taking your time to reply. 

It is not a new build house, but an old house I have recently move in to. 

I selected the plumbing company based on the amount of favourable reviews (checkatrade/Which/Google) it enjoyed by comparison to other local options. They are registered / accredited etc. I also thought it being a company rather than individual may be of benefit for accountability. I didn't get multiple quotes because it appeared to be a simple/small job and I was more interested in quality (good reviews, professional looking company etc) than lowest price.

I think by blaming the 'unusual pressure' they're seeking to alleviate responsibility from themselves. He said 'in 99% of cases the PRV we fitted would be sufficient'. That may be true, but the pressure in my property was evident and known to be high and could have been properly measured and the correct hardware selected before work undertaken. 

My understanding of citizens advice / consumer rights tells me I shouldn't need to pay for this work or that I have to give the plumber a chance to re-do the work. So unless I hear a different opinion I'm likely now to give them the option. After which I may be exploring quotes from other plumbers.

Jumblebumble

KommanderKeen said:

I've moved to a new property and the water pressure is clearly extremely high (pipes banging too). For a couple of weeks I controlled it myself by almost entirely closing the stoptap. 

I contacted a plumber asking for them to work out how to control and reduce the pressure. They came and installed a PRV unit. Unfortunately this unit made a continuous loud whine, audible throughout the house, when a tap was turned part on. The plumbers presumed a faulty unit and came to fit a replacement free of charge. The second unit emits the same sound under the same conditions.

It's likely the PRV chosen and installed is not suited to how high the pressure is. The plumber now believes a commercial PRV unit is necessary, one capable of managing higher pressure. 

However, the plumber has now said they believe the work they've done thus far has been reasonable. Also that the high pressure in my property is so unusual that they can't be held responsible for installing an incorrect PRV. Thus, the new commercial grade PRV will now not be fitted free of charge. 

I'm now in a position no better off than when I 'solved' the issue by part-closing my own stoptap. In fact, there's now an unsuitable PRV in place that may or may not burst under strain. And I have a gained reasonably hefty invoice for work that hasn't helped at all and will need to be removed and refitted.

From my point of view:
- The initial issue was inaccurately diagnosed (or even ignored). At the outset they tested the water pressure (or at least volume) with a flow cup. We couldn't get a reading because the flow cup maxed out. Surely this should have been enough warning to pause and consider what solution would be appropriate? I, as a non-plumber, understood that the water pressure in the house was exceptional. Surely, I can expect a plumber to diagnose this properly and take it into account?
- Due to misunderstanding or disregarding the amount of pressure, the PRV unit installed was not appropriate and failed. 
- The second diagnosis - that the 1st PRV must be faulty and just needs replacing - was also inaccurate. And installing the 2nd identical PRV seems to have used up my 'free of charge' token.

I have yet to pay the invoice. 

My understanding is that the issue was clear, present and measurable before work began. It was not an unforeseeable or surprising circumstance. And the plumber has undertaken inappropriate work that hasn't solved the issue.

And as mentioned earlier, I'm in no better position now than before. The existing work will need to be removed to make way for the actual correct solution.

Am I right to expect the tradesperson to come and fix their errors free of charge? Or waive their charge so I can employ someone else to do the work?

Is turning the external stopcock to half way on/off  a way that might solve your issue ?

KommanderKeen

Jumblebumble said: Is turning the external stopcock to half way on/off  a way that might solve your issue ?

It's an old terrace row of houses. The external stoptap is shared between 5 or 6 properties (I found this out on the plumbers visit). So it's not something I think I can change to my preference. 

I've also read that having a half turned stoptap isn't a good longterm solution because it can be worn down by the passing water and then fail to close fully when needed.

I will be speaking to neighbours about whether they have the same high pressure (they must) and what they have done to alleviate it. 

adonis

Jumblebumble said:

KommanderKeen said:

I've moved to a new property and the water pressure is clearly extremely high (pipes banging too). For a couple of weeks I controlled it myself by almost entirely closing the stoptap. 

I contacted a plumber asking for them to work out how to control and reduce the pressure. They came and installed a PRV unit. Unfortunately this unit made a continuous loud whine, audible throughout the house, when a tap was turned part on. The plumbers presumed a faulty unit and came to fit a replacement free of charge. The second unit emits the same sound under the same conditions.

It's likely the PRV chosen and installed is not suited to how high the pressure is. The plumber now believes a commercial PRV unit is necessary, one capable of managing higher pressure. 

However, the plumber has now said they believe the work they've done thus far has been reasonable. Also that the high pressure in my property is so unusual that they can't be held responsible for installing an incorrect PRV. Thus, the new commercial grade PRV will now not be fitted free of charge. 

I'm now in a position no better off than when I 'solved' the issue by part-closing my own stoptap. In fact, there's now an unsuitable PRV in place that may or may not burst under strain. And I have a gained reasonably hefty invoice for work that hasn't helped at all and will need to be removed and refitted.

From my point of view:
- The initial issue was inaccurately diagnosed (or even ignored). At the outset they tested the water pressure (or at least volume) with a flow cup. We couldn't get a reading because the flow cup maxed out. Surely this should have been enough warning to pause and consider what solution would be appropriate? I, as a non-plumber, understood that the water pressure in the house was exceptional. Surely, I can expect a plumber to diagnose this properly and take it into account?
- Due to misunderstanding or disregarding the amount of pressure, the PRV unit installed was not appropriate and failed. 
- The second diagnosis - that the 1st PRV must be faulty and just needs replacing - was also inaccurate. And installing the 2nd identical PRV seems to have used up my 'free of charge' token.

I have yet to pay the invoice. 

My understanding is that the issue was clear, present and measurable before work began. It was not an unforeseeable or surprising circumstance. And the plumber has undertaken inappropriate work that hasn't solved the issue.

And as mentioned earlier, I'm in no better position now than before. The existing work will need to be removed to make way for the actual correct solution.

Am I right to expect the tradesperson to come and fix their errors free of charge? Or waive their charge so I can employ someone else to do the work?

Is turning the external stopcock to half way on/off  a way that might solve your issue ?

If the plumber had used a water pressure gauge that you can buy for less than £20 he would have known what the pressure is, easy to connect to an outside tap or washing machine connection.

Just to add part closing the stop valve only reduces flow not pressure.

oldagetraveller1

"Just to add part closing the stop valve only reduces flow not pressure."

Is correct.