No electricity but metre box has lights.

[Deleted User]

Bendy_House said:

Deleted_User said:

There should be a situation where the RCD (the one on the left?) doesn't trip correct? As in, if I undo a plug or switch all the other switches on bar one, one should work? What's happening now is that I can't create a situation where it doesn't trip 

Ideally, yes.

We are ASSUMING that ONE of these MCB circuits has a leakage fault on it. Therefore, if THAT MCB was kept turned off, then in the vast majority of cases, the other 5 should be able to remain on (up) along with the RCD.

This morning, we thought it was the 'lights ground floor' circuit.

So, what happens if you turn OFF the lgf MCB - does the RCD now stay on?

What situation would lead to the RCD not staying on, despite all/each individual MCB being turned off? 

chris_n

Deleted_User said:

fenwick458 said:

Bendy_House said:

Almost certainly it'll stay there, because you have removed all six circuits from it, so there is no more 'leaking'. 

not completely disconnected, by turning off the MCB you are only disconnecting the live conductors. all of the neutral conductors are screwed directly into the neutral bar the only way to disconnect these is to remove the consumer unit cover, locate them, and disconnect them (job for an electrician really)

Bendy_House said:

Each circuit is likely to have some minor leakage, and when it all adds up to 30mA, the RCD should trip. So it could be that all the other circuits - including the 'leakiest' - are adding up to a theoretical 29mA, and then turning on the 

Realistically a 30mA RCD will trip much earlier, around 21-22mA. probably set like this to err on the side of caution by the manufacturers, the majority of them I test will go at 21mA

Deleted_User said:

I assumed it was the outside lights as it was wet and windy. I turned that (WHAT?) off initially and it still was tripping(WHAT WAS TRIPPING?). Got home today, all the switches are up apart from the one on the very left(THE LEFT RCD?). Switched that up, everything turned on fine but one of the switches tripped (WHICH ONE?). Thought I solved, however, now trying to replicate the fix (having all the switches off aside that one), it's not turning on. Bright red light on the box mean anything? The one with the screen 

You are going to get more helpful replies by including important details in your answers. stop calling them all switches, it's confusing.
by the sounds of it you have an insulation resistance fault on any one of the 5-6 circuits on the left, and it's probably an electricians job to pinpoint that.
this is the downside of a dual RCD consumer unit, one single fault has rendered the OP without power (except to one circuit)
a new (18th edition Amendment 2) consumer unit with type A RCBO's and type 2 surge protection would be a good idea in my opinion

Doing the best I can without being an electrician. Had no idea about an RCB etc was so posted a picture and said which one was tripping. In short, RCB won't stay up. 

Quick question, when trying to find the issue, is there much difference between unplugging an appliance and switching it off from the switch? 

Yes there is a difference between unplugging and switching off (usually). Most switches will only switch the live and leave the neutral connected. In your position I would start by unplugging everything. It is more likely to be an appliance fault than an actual wiring fault. If it still trips with everything unplugged then you need to call an electrician.

Bendy_House

Deleted_User said:

Bendy_House said:

Deleted_User said:

There should be a situation where the RCD (the one on the left?) doesn't trip correct? As in, if I undo a plug or switch all the other switches on bar one, one should work? What's happening now is that I can't create a situation where it doesn't trip 

Ideally, yes.

We are ASSUMING that ONE of these MCB circuits has a leakage fault on it. Therefore, if THAT MCB was kept turned off, then in the vast majority of cases, the other 5 should be able to remain on (up) along with the RCD.

This morning, we thought it was the 'lights ground floor' circuit.

So, what happens if you turn OFF the lgf MCB - does the RCD now stay on?

What situation would lead to the RCD not staying on, despite all/each individual MCB being turned off? 

That's a very good question, and getting to the limit of my understanding. We need Fen and Rist.

But, you can also get 'leakage' via the neutral, and these are all still connected even when the MCB is off.

I understand that the way to think of an RCD's operation is that it COMPARES the current flowing through the live and the neutral. These SHOULD be the same - what goes in must equal what comes out, but if there's a fault that causes a 'leak' to earth, then there will be an imbalance, so the RCD will trip.

Bendy_House

Deleted_User said:

Bendy_House said:

Deleted_User said:

I assumed it was the outside lights as it was wet and windy. I turned that off initially and it still was tripping. Got home today, all the switches are up apart from the one on the very left. Switched that up, everything turned on fine but one of the switches tripped. Thought I solved, however, now trying to replicate the fix (having all the switches off aside that one), it's not turning on. Bright red light on the box mean anything? The one with the screen 

I thought you'd left it with the 'lights ground floor' MCB turned off? And that this seemed to allow the RCD (the far-left) to stay up and not trip?

Explain "Switched that up, everything turned on fine but one of the switches tripped." please. Are you saying that you flicked on the RCD and that one of the MCBs then tripped off? If so, which one? And, with that NVB still off, does the RCD now stay on?

Also explain "Bright red light on the box mean anything? The one with the screen"? That literally means nothing to me :-(

When I left home today, I left the ground floor lights off. However, about an hour later it tripped (I was at work, camera stated the time it disconnected).

When I got home, all the MCB switches, aside from the ground floor one which I left, was up (on). When I flicked the RCD, everything turned on and but the one that switched off was the ground floor plugs (so no fridge, TV etc.).

Thought I figured everything out but it tripped again. The bright red light is on the smart metre I believe. Think it just means little energy is being drawn after a quick Google search. 

Ok, this is something very different. You turned on the RCD, and what then tripped OFF was an MCB? The one for your ground floor sockets?

Ok, an MCB is a different beast altogether. It doesn't detect tiny 'leaks', but instead limits the max amount of CURRENT that goes to a circuit (in this case, the ground floor sockets). This is more 'serious'. A tripping MCB indicates a serious overloading, either far too many electrical items on the same circuit (which won't be the case), or else a significant 'short circuit' that's drawing a LARGE current.

 If an MCB trips, and it trips again on reset (ie, it wasn't just a random act), then don't turn it on again! At least not until you reckon you've isolated the cause. 

So, now suspect appliances plugged in to your ground floor circuit. Unplug EVERYTHING on that ring, and see if the MCB now stays on. If it does, then begin to replug items, and check each one for correct operation - if one is faulty, it should hopefully be obvious. I'd emphasise to take some care doing this - turn off the socket switch, plug the item in, switch on the socket, and then the appliance. I'd be a little more cautious, too, with metal-bodied items like W/Ms. Just turn them on, and try them out - don't cuddle them.

Report back - does that MCB stay up when all items are unplugged? 

[Deleted User]

Bendy_House said:

Deleted_User said:

Bendy_House said:

Deleted_User said:

I assumed it was the outside lights as it was wet and windy. I turned that off initially and it still was tripping. Got home today, all the switches are up apart from the one on the very left. Switched that up, everything turned on fine but one of the switches tripped. Thought I solved, however, now trying to replicate the fix (having all the switches off aside that one), it's not turning on. Bright red light on the box mean anything? The one with the screen 

I thought you'd left it with the 'lights ground floor' MCB turned off? And that this seemed to allow the RCD (the far-left) to stay up and not trip?

Explain "Switched that up, everything turned on fine but one of the switches tripped." please. Are you saying that you flicked on the RCD and that one of the MCBs then tripped off? If so, which one? And, with that NVB still off, does the RCD now stay on?

Also explain "Bright red light on the box mean anything? The one with the screen"? That literally means nothing to me :-(

When I left home today, I left the ground floor lights off. However, about an hour later it tripped (I was at work, camera stated the time it disconnected).

When I got home, all the MCB switches, aside from the ground floor one which I left, was up (on). When I flicked the RCD, everything turned on and but the one that switched off was the ground floor plugs (so no fridge, TV etc.).

Thought I figured everything out but it tripped again. The bright red light is on the smart metre I believe. Think it just means little energy is being drawn after a quick Google search. 

Ok, this is something very different. You turned on the RCD, and what then tripped OFF was an MCB? The one for your ground floor sockets?

Ok, an MCB is a different beast altogether. It doesn't detect tiny 'leaks', but instead limits the max amount of CURRENT that goes to a circuit (in this case, the ground floor sockets). This is more 'serious'. A tripping MCB indicates a serious overloading, either far too many electrical items on the same circuit (which won't be the case), or else a significant 'short circuit' that's drawing a LARGE current.

 If an MCB trips, and it trips again on reset (ie, it wasn't just a random act), then don't turn it on again! At least not until you reckon you've isolated the cause. 

So, now suspect appliances plugged in to your ground floor circuit. Unplug EVERYTHING on that ring, and see if the MCB now stays on. If it does, then begin to replug items, and check each one for correct operation - if one is faulty, it should hopefully be obvious. I'd emphasise to take some care doing this - turn off the socket switch, plug the item in, switch on the socket, and then the appliance. I'd be a little more cautious, too, with metal-bodied items like W/Ms. Just turn them on, and try them out - don't cuddle them.

Report back - does that MCB stay up when all items are unplugged? 

Going to try again today. I unplugged all that I could but there is the washing machine and a garden socket that's still plugged in. Couldn't sort those out in the dark. I probably won't be able to get to the fridge however.

Also, I wasn't able to replicate the issue where the MCB tripped. The RCD just refused to turn on after that. 

[Deleted User]

Bendy_House said:

Deleted_User said:

Bendy_House said:

Deleted_User said:

There should be a situation where the RCD (the one on the left?) doesn't trip correct? As in, if I undo a plug or switch all the other switches on bar one, one should work? What's happening now is that I can't create a situation where it doesn't trip 

Ideally, yes.

We are ASSUMING that ONE of these MCB circuits has a leakage fault on it. Therefore, if THAT MCB was kept turned off, then in the vast majority of cases, the other 5 should be able to remain on (up) along with the RCD.

This morning, we thought it was the 'lights ground floor' circuit.

So, what happens if you turn OFF the lgf MCB - does the RCD now stay on?

What situation would lead to the RCD not staying on, despite all/each individual MCB being turned off? 

That's a very good question, and getting to the limit of my understanding. We need Fen and Rist.

But, you can also get 'leakage' via the neutral, and these are all still connected even when the MCB is off.

I understand that the way to think of an RCD's operation is that it COMPARES the current flowing through the live and the neutral. These SHOULD be the same - what goes in must equal what comes out, but if there's a fault that causes a 'leak' to earth, then there will be an imbalance, so the RCD will trip.

Does unplugging everything also include light bulbs? 

chris_n

Deleted_User said:

Bendy_House said:

Deleted_User said:

Bendy_House said:

Deleted_User said:

There should be a situation where the RCD (the one on the left?) doesn't trip correct? As in, if I undo a plug or switch all the other switches on bar one, one should work? What's happening now is that I can't create a situation where it doesn't trip 

Ideally, yes.

We are ASSUMING that ONE of these MCB circuits has a leakage fault on it. Therefore, if THAT MCB was kept turned off, then in the vast majority of cases, the other 5 should be able to remain on (up) along with the RCD.

This morning, we thought it was the 'lights ground floor' circuit.

So, what happens if you turn OFF the lgf MCB - does the RCD now stay on?

What situation would lead to the RCD not staying on, despite all/each individual MCB being turned off? 

That's a very good question, and getting to the limit of my understanding. We need Fen and Rist.

But, you can also get 'leakage' via the neutral, and these are all still connected even when the MCB is off.

I understand that the way to think of an RCD's operation is that it COMPARES the current flowing through the live and the neutral. These SHOULD be the same - what goes in must equal what comes out, but if there's a fault that causes a 'leak' to earth, then there will be an imbalance, so the RCD will trip.

Does unplugging everything also include light bulbs? 

Normally I would say no but with LEDs having electronics then yes. Its probably not a lamp though, most likely are the ones you have said you can't unplug i.e. washing machine, fridge, outside sockets etc

Section62

Deleted_User said:

Also, I wasn't able to replicate the issue where the MCB tripped. The RCD just refused to turn on after that. 

There's a possibility the repeated tripping has led to the RCD failing.

Otherwise the RCD now tripping instantly suggests whatever the problem is has got worse.

TBH it is probably past the point where you needed to get a professional electrician to check your installation and find the problem.  The washing machine and outside socket would both be good candidates for causing an earth leakage fault, but yesterday you thought it might be a lighting circuit that was the problem, and if either of those have been wired into the lights then you potentially have more serious problems than the RCD not staying on.

Section62

Bendy_House said:

Deleted_User said:

What situation would lead to the RCD not staying on, despite all/each individual MCB being turned off? 

That's a very good question, and getting to the limit of my understanding. We need Fen and Rist.

But, you can also get 'leakage' via the neutral, and these are all still connected even when the MCB is off.

i) The RCD is broken, or

ii) Some kind of cross-connection or leakage from circuits on the other half of a split-load board (or other electrical supply) which is passing through the neutral side of the RCD back to the supply neutral (and/or eventually to earth).  The 'borrowed neutral' problem is an example of this.

Either suggests a serious fault which is beyond DIYing - it needs a professional electrician to investigate.

Bendy_House

I wonder if the 'ground floor lighting' tripping the RCD was a red herring? It just happened to be the one that seemingly tripped the RCD, whereas it may only have been contributing a couple of mA to the equation, and the downstairs sockets are still the real culprit?

Jackson, with the 'downstairs sockets' MCB OFF, will the RCD stay on? Or are you saying you now cannot get the RCD to stay on REGARDLESS of whether ALL the MCBs are off?!

If the latter, then stop and call a sparky.

You have a 32A MCB labelled 'Ring'. That means 'sockets'. There is a 16A MCB to its immediate right labelled 'f'all'. What is that for? I'm guessing upstairs sockets?

What, exactly, is on the 32A 'ring'? Does it include the kitchen?

What's the 40A jobbie on the left - is that an electric shower?