Selective pay rises & worker-staff on more than management?

Miss_Cheef

elsien said:

Do you always go via HR?
I’m wondering if initially this would have been better going through your line manager instead? 

Yes. The HR person is also the payroll person and they are the person that is basically used as a go-to point. Middle-person in a sense. Top tier management will some times go to this individual to relay info to the lower level (for want of a better term) staff. This individual will conduct the meetings, interviews, reports, so on & so forth. This individual is also used by the lower level staff if you will to go to with any kind of grievance or enquiry - including pay. 
How it would usually go is my team would approach me as their manager - any news on a pay rise? I would then go to HR & repeat, letting them know if it's likely any top workers are close to leaving because of it. HR would then respond (usually not so defensively).

HampshireH said:

Does your organisation have a policy on pay and renumeration? Are they adhering to that?

Well yes they have a policy on pay in the sense that they will pay us for working for them. Not too sure what you mean there, but overall no. There's nothing set in stone about pay rises or even pay reviews. Many many many moons ago we went some years without a pay rise, but in recent years we've had one every year. Not a guarantee but we've had one.

Exodi said:

You obviously know why HR would obfuscate about whether the lack of pay increase is due to your long term sickness. You're not going to get them to say "yes it is", much as you try. Even if the sickness was totally out of your control, I can see why the senior management team might be miffed by a worker strolling in from long term sickness, asking about their assumed payrise.

It seems a habit for them really. Just to deny things. I've suffered it myself directly at times - just total denial that something that did happen, happened. 
They've clearly chosen not to give ME one. They thought everyone would stay quiet, which was never going to happen because people talk. The easiest way for them to handle it is to just deny everything rather than say I'm not getting one. I can't prove the other people have been offered/given one even if we all know they have so I'm out of luck there.

As for being miffed. No I can't see it. At the end of the day I don't see why people get so tetchy. I just asked. Keyword there is asked, actually keyword should be nicely. I didn't ask in any harsh way. They could've just said no not you. The way I see it is there's no harm in asking. You're not murdering someone. It's been 12 months, regardless of whether you've been sick or not. The cost of life goes up. I'm not implying that entitles you to a pay rise but you certainly shouldn't be scared of asking if it's on the cards for fear of upsetting some sensitive soul.

Exodi said:

I wouldn't say subordinates being on more than their managers is common, but it does happen in some industries. As an example, I used to work for a company that serviced fuelling equipment on airports and MOD sites. The manager would book engineers appointments, resolve issues, ensure paperwork was filled out and submitted, jobs were billed, etc. As the engineers were specialised and certified, they were all on more than the manager they reported to.

Ok we're getting way way ahead of ourselves here. Sounds like we're talking about serious operations & skilled work.

Think warehouse, conveyor belt kind of work. Nothing upper level here. So say we have order pickers. I'll manage these order pickers but at the same time I have to be an order picker too. I need to do the same work they do as well as making sure they're doing it right, who does what when, sorting out newcomers if there is any, sorting out ordering on top of the job, being the go to point for management to then delegate to my team.

So it's basically the exact same job with a few extras thrown in.

Exodi said:

Would you leave if they're not willing to give you an increase? Are they saying you will receive in an increase in December and would you be willing to wait? Could they replace you at your current pay or would they have to pay more? You need to understand whether you are in a strong position first. How have they managed to cope while you were on long term sickness - did they hire someone else in, or did the existing team absorb your work? If the latter, a pay increase could almost make sense.

Would I leave? Well I've the chance of a job but the problem is it's a pay cut which at this moment in time is a tough call but I have started looking, yes.

No, they're saying there may be a review in December but that's no cert. In short, it's just a way of saying go away & hopefully by the time 3 months passes, you'll have forgotten totally about pay because they will have.

Could they replace me? Everyone is replaceable. To get to my level of work would take a while & with our type of work we get some real wallies in. Over the years it's been tough to get good people. We've had a lot of wasters but the job itself is not rocket science. Anyone with half a brain could do it really, it's just whether they have an interest in doing what they do well or just plodding on to get through the day.

Yes they did hire someone, but they were looking to do that anyway as we were a member down regardless. 

Disability...

As this keeps coming up, I am not disabled. I had an injury. For example, if someone was a driver & their leg was in a bad way, they were unable to drive - they'd be unable to carry out their duties so couldn't work (assume no other role could be found for sake of argument - as was case for me). Their leg heals, they return to work, even if it's still causing them a bit of pain - they can do the job. They are not disabled, they're doing the job that they always did.

As much as I'd love a blue badge for some free parking I am not disabled.
 

Elliott.T123

Short version if you can prove the only reason you have not received a pay rise while everyone else has is due to some form of protected discrimination then you may have a case. 

If you are unable to do so then there is nothing you can do.

As others have said, the company can legally argue that your skillset is more replaceable than the staff that report into to you and so they are due a pay rise and you aren't. They could use any one of hundreds of arguments for why others have been given on and you haven't.

Also with regards to staff being paid more than managers it is most common in the Sales space, your best sales person doesn't necessarily make your best sales manager so companies often promote one person to manage while keeping their best sales person hands on selling but give them higher money.

Andy_L

Elliott.T123 said:

Short version if you can prove the only reason you have not received a pay rise while everyone else has is due to some form of protected discrimination then you may have a case. 

If you are unable to do so then there is nothing you can do.

As others have said, the company can legally argue that your skillset is more replaceable than the staff that report into to you and so they are due a pay rise and you aren't. They could use any one of hundreds of arguments for why others have been given on and you haven't.

Also with regards to staff being paid more than managers it is most common in the Sales space, your best sales person doesn't necessarily make your best sales manager so companies often promote one person to manage while keeping their best sales person hands on selling but give them higher money.

They don't even need to bother with that - they can give no reason at all

Miss_Cheef

Obviously I have no proof of anything so I'm SoL it seems. 

On top of that I don't have a clue if my same role is still there. Officially it seems to be as it still says manager on a contract I've been given, however in reality with the don't do this, don't do that that I've been given, it made me have to directly ask if my role of manager has been removed. Have I been demoted. HR did much stuttering and going round the houses and never did give me a straight answer, which I suppose speaks loud & clear ... however based on all the posts in this thread, I'm sure as they haven't come out and said it word-for-word then it doesn't matter. 

Was helping (or trying to) someone who was taken on during my sick leave. I don't know what they know and what they don't know so I was just trying to help. This person has then, rather than telling me don't worry I know this stuff, has told HR, HR has told me for telling them stuff they already know (how am I supposed to know? I'm not a mind reader) and the individual was told to just carry on doing as you're doing.

Well sorry but for 1) I don't believe it is so bad to have alternative approaches to a problem. You may find one works better for you. Or you may not. It's not a bad thing though. 2) I'm not going to go around saying please may I approach you to ask if you may need assistance in this area for fear of hurting their feelings by just trying to be helpful.

Honestly. Don't have a clue where I'm supposed to fit in at the moment. In the reject bin it feels like.

Dakta

Tbh even putting the pay issue aside sounds quite toxic anyway. Even if it's not something to do right away perhaps make finding something better in the long term a goal. They're out there 

Miss_Cheef

Dakta said:

Tbh even putting the pay issue aside sounds quite toxic anyway. Even if it's not something to do right away perhaps make finding something better in the long term a goal. They're out there 

Quite.

Can confirm that the stuttering over my direct question before my return was not for no reason. I have now been removed from the managerial position.

The weird thing is, I was asked at the end of the meeting - am I OK with that. Actually I think it was a double question where they went are you OK with that, are you happy. I'm sure OK and happy we're used.

I said that it is pretty irrelevant as to what I think, feel or say (as in, they've made their decision, nothing I can do about it).

I kept being asked if I was happy with it so I just maintained to the point I had to ask what happens if I say no I'm not?

To which they alluded I'd be sacked. Maybe I misread the cryptic response though I doubt.

So I said there you go then. It's irrelevant what I think,  say or feel.

And it is. Because when being told that,  I have 3 choices:

Kick up stink,  get nowhere other than sacked.

Put up with it and stay there.

Put up with it temporarily (even if temporarily may be a while) while looking for a different job elsewhere.

If anything, I'm now under all the rest of the department as they were signing their praises big time, like totally OTT. When they do that it means they're putting someone way over you. Or at least it certainly always has.

Dakta

You do need to get away from that regardless of pay - if I was in the pub giving informal advice 

Miss_Cheef

Dakta said:

You do need to get away from that regardless of pay - if I was in the pub giving informal advice 

And that's without me telling you about the two times I've been spoken to about rubbing my eyes where a big deal was made out of it. Today I was in a roundabout way told I shouldn't be rubbing my eyes as the weather we had shouldn't allow stuff to get in my eyes.

I said - what about an eyelash? 

Seemed to end the eye rub saga ... until the next time.

For them to notice such minor details in the day makes me feel like I am constantly being watched.

Wish I could have that job role - watching workers all day. My eyesight isn't the best but I think I'd still manage to do it.

Next week I'm expecting to be questioned about how many breaths I take in an hour. 

JReacher1

Sounds like they want to get rid of you but don’t want to be done for wrongful dismissal. Doesn’t sound like you have much of a future there so if I was you would start looking for another job. 

Miss_Cheef

JReacher1 said:

Sounds like they want to get rid of you but don’t want to be done for wrongful dismissal. Doesn’t sound like you have much of a future there so if I was you would start looking for another job. 

That's the strong impression I'm getting.

There's been a variation of treatment/reception you may call it, which I actually expected.

There's those who've been ok with me from day 1, or at least ok to my face. Then there's those who are giving me a frosty reception. I saw one of the main sales people on the morning of day 1 and it looked like they were going to walk on by me. Now I'm not expecting anyone to come running to me with open arms giving me a hug & asking if I'm ok, but generally in such a situation when someone has been away for a while like that, you'd at least make some kind of comment if you found yourself within talking distance of them. How've you been, didn't think I'd see you again, I see you're still alive, something. So I said good morning to them & just got a morning grunted at me as they walked on.

So clearly they didn't want me back. Then this progresses on to those who've actively blanked me. A week gone by with nothing said. For one of them, to be fair, all things considered that's actually probably the best outcome for everyone concerned so I'm not complaining there.

And then there's those where as I mentioned - getting questioned about eye rubbing. Very strange. One day I punched in 1 minute to start time because I didn't feel well in the morning & struggled leaving the bathroom before leaving for work. 
Now in the past, if any of my team did anything wrong, I'd always ask the why first. From personal experience, if you jump in with both feet you risk looking silly as there may be an acceptable reason for the why, so I'd always ask first. In this case I got blasted for being late. Others have punched in actually considerably after time, not just close to it on the good side and haven't been addressed. Just a bit of an eye roll and it's basically accepted that this person will be late because when they turn up they work well enough (as do I by the way - I just had a bit of trouble that morning).

All in all it just comes together to make me feel like not that they'd rather I wasn't there (as in, we'll accept you here but we'd prefer it if you wasn't) but that they actually want me to leave (as in, we want you gone, but we'd prefer you to clear off on your own decision rather than us having to do it for you kind of thing).

Maybe I'm wrong but I can only say that's how I feel.